Gangs around Tara Street station

Kingsize · 07-04-2005 02:36PM

"Well, if it's all down to capitalism, there mustn't be any junkies in China."

maybe there aren't ,
we all know what happens to people in china who assemble in a group without the approval of the authorities.

Kingsize · 07-04-2005 02:53PM

most of the police forces in the world have little or no tolerance for public drunkenness so perhaps that'd be a start.
to make it legal you would have to have a proper distribution system,

It'd be interesting to find out when & why heroin became a problem here.
Certainly there are people adicted to smack that can hold down a job & buy thier gear ,but these are the exceptions.

Garibaldi · 07-04-2005 03:29PM

maybe there aren't ,
we all know what happens to people in china who assemble in a group without the approval of the authorities.

Uh huh. If a few thousand junkies want to assemble in Tiananmen Square to get bulldozed by Chinese tanks, that'd be fine by me.
Isn't the whole point that they're in this situation due to the fact that they're drug abusers? Are they suddenly going to become well-balanced, law abiding individuals who recognise what they're doing to themselves when State owned heroin off licences open? Maybe we could start with a colourful "Just say no" poster campaign. That'll do the trick.
It might be interesting to find out the whens and whys alright, but it wouldn't really serve any purpose. The problem is well and truly naturalised now.

magpie · 07-04-2005 03:43PM

Are they suddenly going to become well-balanced, law abiding individuals who recognise what they're doing to themselves when State owned heroin off licences open?

That's the whole point, they'll be monged-out junkies either way. Would you rather:

a) Have them sitting around at home monged off their tits all day on govt prescribed smack.

OR

b) Out robbing, hanging around Tara St Station and generally making a nuisance while subsidising an entire criminal sub-class by their addiction.

Garibaldi · 07-04-2005 03:56PM

So, Magpie, you're saying it'd all be grand as long as you didn't have to look at them? In fact, you seem to be willing to pay them (more than taxpayers already do) for it. Heroine doesn't grow on trees, y'know.

I'd rather not have them at all. Either way they're a burden on society.

Altheus · 07-04-2005 04:00PM

So what about a child who's parents were alcoholics, and both dead, cannot keep an address, as then their homeless allowance will be cut instantly, have no formal education, look rough feel rough are rough, who try and keep their nose clean for years selling the odd bit of hash or pills here and there to scrape together the change for a few cans of Dutch and a hostel for a night.

Fast forward about 4 years, same kid, a little less clean, homeless cheque got cut, but now he's in such a state that he can't even get a home if he wanted to. Sleeps around junkies every night for safety, he helps them, they help him. They offer him some skag. Life is shít anyway, so he does. It offers him escape, continually unquestionably unrelenting unjudgmental escape.

Fact is, heroin is not a problem for upper and middle class kids. These are borderline poverty stricken working class people. Most of these people never stood a chance, and the ones that did ****ed up, and cant get back on track.

The more we call those people junkies, subhuman scum, and make leaps and bounds in humanitarian aid by suggesting we should "sterilise them", the more we perpetuate the cycle.

All well and good for the middle and upper class of this country to suggest that they get "one more chance" and then we cut the umbilical. You're all the most ungrateful bigoted people. The genuine lack of compassion for human beings and the general hostility and uselessness of your comments is fine example of just how worthy you are of your place in society.

These problems exists however they are perpetuated by the cycle of classes amongst many many others. The next time you see a roughed up junkie asking for change ask him his story. Ask him where his mother is, where his father is, where he went to school. These people did not turn twelve and decide, "SMACK?! Deadly buzz!", the lines between casual and social drugs were blurred and no one was their to support them and pull them through it. The areas they come from are known they perpetuate the cycle.

I totally agree that having a large group of addicts or recoverying addicts in the same place is extremely unnerving, but where shall we fix this problem, WE are all part of.

Walls, hidden away, under rug swept. Open your eyes. Ignorance is not bliss, it's just plain ignorant. Participation in society is not limited to the tax shaven from your paycheque every week, or the VAT on all your Playstation games. Attitude in society is not dictated by what is political correct on Sky News. The feeling of moral superiority only breeds contempt, and cause larger gaps in our society to grow and grow.

How much of "your" money really goes on to keeping alive several hundred human beings, compared to how many people have Sky Movies in this country. The idea that "your" money is wasted is ridiculous, and this idea of "proxy" help and a "laissez-faire" attitude of letting them help themselves or telling them to **** off is also archaic.

The only real solution is a full time care centre with 24 hour coverage over a period of months, a full-time rehab clinic. Not a prison, or a methadone clinic. Not a back to work scheme for a guy who can barely scrape his hostels and food for the week out of his cheque after maybe one fix.

A junkies life is far from glamourous, it's a disgusting dangerous, and treacherous path that none sucessfully get through. A habit can cost anything from €5 to €500 a day to keep going. The effects of going cold turkey on the street are easily enough to kill a man or cause severe mental defects.

magpie · 07-04-2005 04:10PM

Have a look at this article. I'm not the only person suggesting this as the way forward http://www.guardian.co.uk/drugs/Story/0,2763,589142,00.html

Kingsize · 07-04-2005 04:12PM

somebody dropped the ball or allowed this to happen years ago
now they are being ignored - a junkies life is indeed a sad & dangerous one.
why would a group of teenage girls want to hang around with a gang of snotty blood spattered middle aged men who look like theyve been eaten up & shat out.???
im playing devils advocate here but if i was in government i'd much prefer my unemployed youth to be "tranquilised" in some way,we wouldnt want them becoming politically active & taking on the cops now would we?
leave that to the middle class hippie students nobody minds them taking a few licks sure they'll all be solictors & doctors in a few years....

Kingsize · 07-04-2005 04:21PM

how much of "your" money really goes on to keeping alive several hundred human beings

it sickens me that people actually think it is their money,lets talk about it though
how much of your tax is wasted on (for example) cleaning up litter dropped by the fine upstanding citizens of this country.

magpie · 07-04-2005 04:23PM

Like the man said 'no drug becomes safer when you leave its production and distribution to criminal gangs'.

StupidLikeAFox · 07-04-2005 04:28PM

Kingsize wrote:

.......but if i was in government....

But isnt this the problem? People are on here talking and moaning but nobody is doing anything. Its all well and good suggesting this and suggesting that, but obviously nobody feels strongly enough about all this to actually DO anything about it

Kingsize · 07-04-2005 04:36PM

including the gardai

Altheus · 07-04-2005 04:37PM

There's no point in being agitated Kingsize. My point was that the layman has no real concept of huge fiscal policy and the redistribution of money by a government, much less the insignificance of his tiny contribution to GDP.

However it's much easier to break it down into break it down into these words, on average per citizen I'd say you resent the contribution of a cent a day toward these people, yet you would completely willingly spend the extra 30c it would cost you to say get a can of Coke in Spar rather than walk down to Tesco, and instead put the money in the hands of another company who will only exploit you for your convenience, and have no concept of "charity".

Altheus · 07-04-2005 04:41PM

ColHol: I do help my homeless friends and try and keep them on the right track as much as possible. They do not need my charity, but they do need my respect and support. Hopefully they will stay clean, and be able to live good lives.

Garibaldi · 07-04-2005 04:42PM

So what about a child who's parents were decent, hard working citizens, and both killed in a car crash, are made wards of the State, go into the foster care program with a loving family or, if young enough, are adopted, go on to formal education, look average, feel average, are average, who try and keep their nose clean for years doing a paper round to scrape together the change for a few cans of "Heino" and a roide for a night.

Ah, bollox to this bleeding heart nonsense. It's this kind of rubbish that perpetuates the cycle, because all anyone ever does is talk and nothing actually gets done.

"heroin is not a problem for upper and middle class kids"

That's right, it's just a non-stop party unless you're from the inner city. No-one has it as bad as them, blah, blah, blah.

"You're all the most ungrateful bigoted people."

Granted, it might seem that way through this limited medium and specific topic, but I don't think changing the terms of reference to these people (and please don't go off on an "Aha! You called them people, not junkies" tangent) is going to affect any physical realities. It's not a lack of compassion for human beings, it's a building of frustration at how absolutely SFA is being done to combat the problem. Enough with the victim line, how does the rampant stealing, murder and general criminality show their worth to society? Maybe you'd be so moved by their story of rags to rags that you'd just hand over the keys to the house.

The only class distinction here is the ability of a middle/upper class individual's family to pay for private health care. Just because they might be rich doesn't mean they have a different physiology to scummers.

"These people did not turn twelve and decide, "SMACK?! Deadly buzz!""

How do you know? Maybe they did. Peer pressure is a dangerous thing.

"The areas they come from are known they perpetuate the cycle."

Isn't that what I said?

"I totally agree that having a large group of addicts or recoverying addicts in the same place is extremely unnerving"

Good to know you're on board.

"Walls, hidden away, under rug swept." Welcome, Alanis. Loved you in Dogma.

"Ignorance is not bliss, it's just plain ignorant. Participation in society is not limited to the tax shaven from your paycheque every week, or the VAT on all your Playstation games. Attitude in society is not dictated by what is political correct on Sky News. The feeling of moral superiority only breeds contempt, and cause larger gaps in our society to grow and grow."

Now *that's* ignorant. Who are you to say that that's the only contribution people posting here make to society? You're starting to sound like a Marxist propaganda merchant.

"The only real solution is a full time care centre with 24 hour coverage over a period of months, a full-time rehab clinic."

In a country where regular people can't get proper medical care, that's not really a runner.

"A junkies life is far from glamourous, it's a disgusting dangerous, and treacherous path that none sucessfully get through."

So, you're saying it *is* a waste of time, then.

"A habit can cost anything from €5 to €500 a day to keep going."

Jeez! Good thing they don't have to pay for it, then. :mad:

StupidLikeAFox · 07-04-2005 04:42PM

Kingsize wrote:

including the gardai

In fairness i dont think you'd fancy tackling them guys either. Maybe if a lot of public pressure were put on them something could happen. As it stands, some one will say, ''god i hate those guys'', another will say, ''yeah me too''

Altheus · 07-04-2005 04:58PM

Gariboldi: First up, I'm not going to quiz you about your upbringing, but fact is I'm lower middle class from a suburb, and the only drug I never saw around was heroin. Name one middle/upper class area where heroin is or ever was a serious problem? Tell the areas that suffer the most because of the abuse. Tell me where is it the 'norm' for half of your 6th class to drop out and take up smack.

Life is ****ing bliss in the suburbs. Menial things such as playing no being allowed play football on the road were the burning issues of my childhood. Not worrying about my mate who I say chasing a dragon with a few of the older lads.

The 'real' problems my family faced were quite serious, unemployment was a big one for my family. My dad was out of work for 12 out of the last 15 years, yet he still managed to raise 8 middle class kids. Money is not the issue. Class is many many things, money is a decisive factor certainly, but not the issue.

Because I lived in a middle class neighbourhood I was never exposed to hard drugs at an early age (10 - 14). Therefore by the time I was exposed to more serious drugs (cocaine and ecstasy) I already was well enough educated to know where to draw my lines.

In a working class neighbourhood where a troublesome child leaves school early without the proper education he needs and IS exposed to drugs, then the likelyhood he will be involved in that cycle is multiplied a million fold.

That is my point.

Get off your high horse, and stop feeling like the fact that life IS harder for the working classes in this country makes you any less of a human being.

Life is all relative, I know that. Relative to the lives of some of the people I know, it's been a pisstake so far.

Altheus · 07-04-2005 05:07PM

Also, I'm not a socialist or a communist, I'm probably best described as a sydica-anarchist. My point was directed to the people who's participation in this conversation was limited to a few slanders and general concerns, much in the way a Sky News broadcast may present it.

You're right though, the health system needs a kick up the hole, but my solution for that is make people pay for the right to go to college, and use the money for more University Hospitals, that way we have more educated nurses doctors, and somewhere for them all. After all, this isn't a communist country, and truth is 3rd level education is wasted by over 40% of the people who enter into each year. I dont think a hospital patient would quite waste the privelege on weekend binges involving cans of Heino.....

b3t4 · 07-04-2005 05:50PM

It appears that Amsterdam may have the solution to the current heroin problem in Ireland. A quick google later and it appears that Amsterdam have one of the lowest heroin problems in Europe. I've linked to some websites/papers outlining why it is thought that legalising cannabis could potentially aid in the fight against heroin abuse.

Paper outlining how France has a higher heroin problem than Amsterdam http://www.cedro-uva.org/lib/boekhout.drugs.html

Outlines Amsterdamns stance http://www.b-info.com/tools/miva/newsview.mv?url=news/2000-11/text/nov28d.rfe

Another article stating how Amsterdam's laws are resulting in a reduced number of heroin addicts. http://www.drugwarfacts.org/thenethe.pdf

Garibaldi · 08-04-2005 09:58AM

I'll get off my high horse if you'll get off yours.

"Life is ****ing bliss in the suburbs"

(disclaimer: yes, there are good people everywhere but...)
Killinarden's a suburb. Ballymun's a suburb. Neilstown's a suburb. etc etc

Part of my point was that at some stage, they made a decision to take drugs. A decision which they must have understood would do nothing to improve their position in life. In this day and age, anyone who claims they aren't aware of the negative effects of drugs is lying. Most likely, and primarily, to themselves. Problem kids dropping out of the education system is a whole other can of worms that, I'm sure, does lead to participation in the cycle. The social problems in this country are, indeed, enormous. There's no one reason why anyone ends up a junkie.
You've got to hand it to the Dutch. They're the only nation I'm aware of with such a progressive attitude to drugs and the problems they cause. As I said before, if a programme like theirs were implemented here, I'd support it 100%. It may not be perfect, but it's better than the next to nothing being done here, whether through lack of funding or lack of political will. I'd be curious to know what the situation was in Holland prior to introduction of the revised drug laws.

What the hell is a sydica-anarchist, anyway???

"I dont think a hospital patient would quite waste the privelege on weekend binges involving cans of Heino....."

???? The privilege of being a patient? The privilege of having decent medical care? Isn't that one supposed to be a right? Where do your cans of Heino come into it?

Oh well, this one could go on and on. Basically, the gangs are still here, people are still being murdered (at worst) and intimidated (at best), and the light at the end of the tunnel really could be an oncoming train.

Hobbes · 08-04-2005 10:12AM

Garibaldi wrote:

You've got to hand it to the Dutch. They're the only nation I'm aware of with such a progressive attitude to drugs and the problems they cause.

Yea instead of someone selling you soft drugs on the streets/clubs you can go to a shop to get them. Meanwhile you will get accosted on the street by people trying to sell you hard drugs.

interlooper · 08-04-2005 01:28PM

Indulge me if you will...
Firstly, no offence, but "synda-anarchist" ? - Michael Bakunin has just exploded, I can feel it in the ether...
On the subject of Gardaí taking an active interest. Only last week I was strolling across O'Connell Street and witnessed a 20-something couple on the receiving end of a group of wacked-out undead skangers fists. Rather than intervene, I looked about and saw three of said Gardaí strolling up the street in the direction of the "games". The couple escaped with split eyelids etc. I legged over to the coppers and told them there was a gang of scumbags battering people. Their reply...(this is class)..."Oh yeah we heard a couple of minutes ago, we're on our way up now" - I kid you not. Off they sauntered (and I mean sauntered) in the direction of the fracas. Confidence inspiring, again. They seemed more upset by my "well I feel reassured already" comment than by the fact they were 100 yards from the scene of a gang assault.
Heroin addicts - I've been fortunate enough to know 3, 2 of whom I'd be amazed if they were still alive. These 2, both upper middle class liked the buzz. And of course used their GP obtained methodone to supplement their zombie habit. The third claimed to do it for recreation.
My solution shall be called the Schrodinger experiment. Get a large cardboard box, fill it with said Tara Street gand and a slow decaying radioactive isotope and some toxin. Tape the lid shut... DO they die ? Who cares... They're off the streets.
Alternatively you could have enforced rehabilitation. That and execution of dealers. I do know someone who designed a public execution gallery for placement in the IFSC as an architecture project. Maybe I could approach my local td and make a suggestion.
As for heino clogging up the hospitals... Make the f**kers pay for the ambulence ride, the treatment and the bed... If they cant pay, recycle them.

Animus audax subdolus varius

Garibaldi · 08-04-2005 01:54PM

It's a fair cop, Hobbes! Not having been there and relying on either 5 year old web docs or friends' holiday experience for evidence, a little inaccuracy about the real situation on the ground is bound to creep in. Mind you, I can't think of a European city I've been in where I wasn't offered drugs, so another slap for me, there. I did have a guy in Washington DC offer to shoot me, though. That was an interesting change. If I were to dig deep enough, I'd probably find out his name was Altheus, or something.

As regards the Garda situation, they haven't got the equipment or the legal backing to bash the heads that need bashing. Noel Conroy raised some good points about redressing the balance there. However, medical care is the football of the moment, so decent policing will just have to wait.
A petty crime example of current unwillingness to stop crime:
One of the lads here went into the shop next door for some smokes. While he's there, syringe boy comes running in, holds the place up, threatens the usual stabbings, runs away with €40 or thereabouts. The lad from here (LFH) goes out onto the street a second or two later and there, right in front of him, is a Garda (G).

LFH: Guard! That lad (points at scummer running up street) is just after robbing this shop!
G: Is that right?
LFH: Too fuggin right, it's right. (stares at motionless Garda) ..... Well?!?!? Aren't you going to do something????
G: Now, hold on there a minute. What's your name?
LFH: Ah for fug's sake! Forget it. (scummer had long disappeared up the street)

Garda pretty much did as he was told and forgot it. Tragic, really.

Kingsize · 08-04-2005 02:48PM

my best experience with the gardai
my self & my gf found a (german) kids passport on Abbey st.
we brought it to store st garda station, nobody on the desk.
there was a kid of about 13 running around the reception area out of his game.(he looked like he was on speed- & was running blindly around crashing into walls like a clockwork toy!!!)
we rung the bell for "service" & waited & waited & waited.
we rung the bell again - no joy.
another guy who came in rung the bell continuosly.
(the kid continued to damage himself )
after another 5 minutes of bell ringing a fat garda sargeant with a cup of coffee in one hand & a half eaten jaffa cake in the other came out & told us all "if we didnt stop ringing the fu-king bell he'd lock us all up"
we left & gave the passport to a motorbike cop who was on his way back in.
needless to say i feel safe in my bed at night knowing that these brave men are out there

Altheus · 08-04-2005 06:03PM

Not going to argue that the police in this country are amongst the weakest and least responsive bunch of individuals in the world. Hardly the point either, although the debate between whether or not drug use is a criminal, civil or even moral offence is quite an interesting one.

As for the liberal Netherlands, while heroin use is down, cocaine and other forms of drug use are much more abundant. Racism is a huge problem, and there are many other forms of social injustice to deal with, mass immigration and the fact the it is the centre point for illegal drug distribution in Europe.

That said, I do feel that the partial legalisation and control of substance is indeed a way forward. However I do not feel that the heroin problem in the country is due to the drug, but a symptom of a much larger social problem. In this much I feel that the average heavy heroin addict cannot nesscessarily be cured with medicinal or even physcological help to the point where they will be able to get a job, get a house and live an ordinary life like you are I. It is the slim chance that they will recover. Heroin is what feeds a cancer, and junkies are merely a tumor. Ideally you would just slice off the malignent cells, but unfortunately the roots of this problem lies much deeper than that. While anger and bitterness and destruction may be one route to solve this problem, I personally feel it is not the right approach.

As for Anarcho-Syndicalism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism
Sort of irrelevant, but for the record I'm not a communist.

I'm no philistine, but maybe I'm alone on this one, I feel that the health of any human being comes before getting a kid through his Arts degree in Trinity.

Renegade_Archer · 08-04-2005 11:28PM

Ive said it before, and I'll say it again:

Chain gangs.

These individuals take away from society, now they get to give back.
Bit of forced scumbag labour might help alleviate this nation's infrastructure issues.

Gangs around Tara Street station

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