Krav Maga

Musashi · 26-01-2005 2:05am

I have four pointless black belts of varying degrees in traditional martial arts.

It takes about 4 years to become a black belt in most martial arts, and at that point you're not even concidered proficent.

after four in Bushido Ryu, Shaolin Kempo, Taekwon Do, or Wing Chun!

And ya know what, after having tried over 15 martial arts (lost count....), and reaching >>minimum<< green belt

Tae Kwon Do - black belt (3rd) (yeah...whoop-de-****in'-doo, right? Just like everybody else)
Kung Fu - Black - don't remember specifics
Wing Chung - Black (well...kinda...we didn't use belts, but I'm the equivalent of a black >.>)
Shaolin Kempo - Black...don't remember specifics.
Yeah...big ****in' deal, right? Everybody has black belts

I have seven green belts, in arts I no longer practice, four purple, and...hell...I don't remember the rest. I have really bad luck with schools. Most close down.

I'm testing for my Bushido Ryo black belt sometime soon....*thinks* well...I kinda already have it but...long story (my sensei has kinda taken too many blows to the head)

Krav Maga - Green belt (don't laugh...there are only four belts before you get to black, and green is the 3rd.) Personally, I'm very proud of this belt. I have put more work, effort, blood, sweat, and tears into this damn thing than all my crappy black belts combined! My last damned test spanned FOUR DAYS, nine hours each.....did hell on my body and sleep...but I got to miss school! *happy dance*

So how old are you and still in school? Assuming you took two styles at a time and are up to third Dan in TKD after four years to First Dan,all your other Dan Grades,all your coloured belts. I'm guessing you started training at Two years old? How is a two year olds opinion of any style valid to me?
If you were older and able to critique styles,what "school" did you miss for your Krav Maga Grading?
Don't come in here and insult the members please.

john123xyz · 26-01-2005 5:19pm

I did one of the weekend krav maga courses with Pat Cumiskey and it was okay. I haven't done anything before so I didn't know what to expect. Some of the others thought they were serious Bruce Lee's when the course was over and you could see a few of them develop chips on their shoulders within hours. I personally do not believe that I can suddenly defend myself against any eventually after this Krav Maga course. As for Pat, he was okay, he lacks control sometimes which can get him in trouble. Also, I hear he's actually never been in a fight before yet that's all he talks about. I wonder if Krav Maga would work for him? All in all I wouldn't do this course or train with him again. It was a very expensive 'interesting' activity.

John

dabhal · 26-01-2005 5:26pm

john123xyz wrote:

I did one of the weekend krav maga courses with Pat Cumiskey and it was okay. I haven't done anything before so I didn't know what to expect. Some of the others thought they were serious Bruce Lee's when the course was over and you could see a few of them develop chips on their shoulders within hours. I personally do not believe that I can suddenly defend myself against any eventually after this Krav Maga course. As for Pat, he was okay, he lacks control sometimes which can get him in trouble. Also, I hear he's actually never been in a fight before yet that's all he talks about. I wonder if Krav Maga would work for him? All in all I wouldn't do this course or train with him again. It was a very expensive 'interesting' activity.

John

Nice to see the other side of this. You describe what comes across from other krav maga posters here.
One query, why did you not take up the offer of your money back?

Dabhal

pma-ire · 26-01-2005 7:24pm

john123xyz wrote:

I did one of the weekend krav maga courses with Pat Cumiskey and it was okay. I haven't done anything before so I didn't know what to expect. Some of the others thought they were serious Bruce Lee's when the course was over and you could see a few of them develop chips on their shoulders within hours. I personally do not believe that I can suddenly defend myself against any eventually after this Krav Maga course. As for Pat, he was okay, he lacks control sometimes which can get him in trouble. Also, I hear he's actually never been in a fight before yet that's all he talks about. I wonder if Krav Maga would work for him? All in all I wouldn't do this course or train with him again. It was a very expensive 'interesting' activity.

John

Nice post

A good honest comment without any BS

Can anyone come back on this from KM ??

Just for my own interest. Out of all the peebs on that consider themselves KM trained. Are you training in any way now, after the course either in another style or on your own with buds ??

gcdublin · 27-01-2005 11:17am

Hi all - is my first post here, so bare with me

My background - I did a KM course with Pat sometime last year in Dublin. The course was taught as one night a week over the course of 8 weeks (I think - can't remember the exact details to be honest). I have a background in Kickboxing, Thai Boxing and a bit of grapping, all of which I still train at a bit. Although being nothing special I was a comfortable enough martial artist. As those in the know will notice I didn't do what people call "traditional" or the pyjama martial arts, mainly sports and freestyle stuff.

The reason I did the KM course - When I was off travelling in Oz I was training in a gym doing some bag work, and I met this lad who was pulling out some serious intense moves. I got talking to him and he said he'd been studying KM in Oz for the last while. When I got back I looked into and did the course with Pat.

I thought the course was ok - it wasn't run the best and sometimes there was a lack of control going on from the teachers / participants, but to be honest if you put a group (about 25 in my case or so) of complete novices in a room, and within the first hour start teaching them heal-palms, it's always going to be like that. Some people have said it gave people a false sense of security they thought- I reckon it depends on the individual. There were quite a few people there that seemed very much into the aggresive side of it all. They probably have their reasons, but it is meant to be self-defence after all, which sometimes seemed to be missed on many participants. I remember one case in particular when we were practising getting out of headlocks, using any means possible and the guy I had in a headlock bit my side. I don't mean pretended to bite, I mean actually did it. The next day I had a nice big bruise there where I was biten. I'm not a wuss or anything close, just with a course like this you have no idea why people are learning it or what they are going to do with their new skills y'know?

I do think it's very hard to teach people something in 24 hours that they will remember for life. I also realise that this is the most time alot of people will dedicate to something like this. With that in mind they probably learn as much as they can in that time. In 5 years time how much of it will they remember, and even more importantly how much will be instinct? I don't really know.

My opinion - If all you have is 24 hours to learn a style such as KM, then you're going to learn a bit but will it be practical or are you fooling yourself? If the answer is no, then by all means looks into KM. If the answer is yes - there are plenty of other intense self defence courses about OR there are lots of modern martial arts that will help you defend yourself, especially if you cross-train and combine a few.

If I had to do it again, no I wouldn't do the KM course I did. It's nothing personal against Pat, I just felt that although it was intense, and hands on, in that period of time , and the way the course was taught - the skills imparted would not be long-term in my case.

Millionaire · 27-01-2005 11:52am

I'd bite your side if I could not get out of a head lock, in fact I would have done this anyway before I even learned KM. Bites are a brilliant equalizer! A total "cut to the chase" technique.

In fact bruce lee used to lift weights with his teeth to strenghten his jaw muscles in case he had to bite. (photo in a JKD book written by Dan Insanto)

Remember martial arts is not a knitting class. Regardless of system or style there is a chance you will get some sort of injury along the way.

You should know this yourself if you did kickboxing. we all have gotten the odd black eye or busted nose or fat lip on ocassion while kickboxing. it comes with the turf.

if you want your training so really work in a street situation you have to train aggressive. any other way your only kidding yourself.

ok not all people want aggressive training, however I find people who train more aggressive tend to gravitate towards training with each other, and the less aggressive the same.

Roper · 27-01-2005 12:23pm

Remember martial arts is not a knitting class. Regardless of system or style there is a chance you will get some sort of injury along the way.

Yeah, thats acceptable, but usually these injuries would be soft tissue or small bones. As you said, they'd go with the turf. What I certainly wouldn't expect is to come home with unhygenic bite marks on me, or have someone stick their finger in my eye.

Again IMO it all comes down to mindset. You say its aggression, but I know some pretty aggressive guys who would rip me apart in the ring or on the mat, and yes, on the street, and they don't resort to biting, eye-gouging, groin striking or any other "dirty tactics".

I'd bite your side if I could not get out of a head lock, Bites are a brilliant equalizer! A total "cut to the chase" technique.

Lets clear something up. "technique" : The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished.
I hardly think biting somebody can fall into this category. A savage reaction perhaps, but a technique, I don't think so.

Also, as KM is for "THE STREET", if your attacker is wearing say, a leather jacket or any other item of medium to heavy clothing, even a couple of layers, your escape tactic of biting is now negated. Instead of biting somebody in training, why not perfect a good technique based escape and perfect it. You can always add your bite should circumstances allow, as you said yourself:

in fact I would have done this anyway before I even learned KM.

Tim_Murphy · 27-01-2005 12:32pm

Roper, you're starting to sound like one of those SBG fellas, shame on you!

Millionaire · 27-01-2005 12:41pm

Lets clear something up. "technique" : The systematic procedure by which a complex or scientific task is accomplished.
I hardly think biting somebody can fall into this category. A savage reaction perhaps, but a technique, I don't think so.

Technique....reaction...who cares as long as it gets you out of a serious situation...perhaps a female escaping a sexual assault type attack. The objective is to escape from a dangerous and serious attacker, as long as the objective is achieved, the method should not matter. Thats my person view.

Also, as KM is for "THE STREET", if your attacker is wearing say, a leather jacket or any other item of medium to heavy clothing, even a couple of layers, your escape tactic of biting is now negated. Instead of biting somebody in training, why not perfect a good technique based escape and perfect it. You can always add your bite should circumstances allow, as you said yourself:[/QUOTE]

Of course biting is only one option, other modes of escape are drilled with all their variations based on situation, ie jacket, size, etc etc. I certainly don't just depend on a bite.

However bites work..simple and fast. Look at Paul Vunak he has a whole DVD dedicated to biting. (amongs all other aspects of fighting). He spent 6 years teching techniques like bites to the US Navy SEALS most elite units. If its good enough for the SEALS to use, i'll model the best.

Peace Dude

Roper · 27-01-2005 3:02pm

Well to be honest I'm not too interested in what an elite bunch of people can do or use, instead I'll stick to what works for the average person most of the time and train it with a healthy mindset.

I appreciate its your thing and more power to you.

Agghhhh!!! Tim, you're right!

When did that start to happen?

columok · 27-01-2005 3:21pm

LMAO @ Roper! You're one of us now!!!!

Millionaire,

If youre doing a training course in self defence it is of course reasonable to expect mild injuries. Bite marks on the other hand should not be expected. I wouldnt want to train in an environment where this kind of behaviour is tolerated OR encouraged!

If I put you in a headlock (not saying this in an aggro chestbeating way

) you could try and bite me as much as you like. 6 years of rugby have taught me to ignore biting. I dont believe that its an effective attack unless youre gonna be opening up an artery. Id much rather rely on my Greco Roman Wrestling Headlock escapes. Then I could slam the guy, sit on him and bite him all day (not that thats what floats my boat

). And do you really wanna start spilling blood with your mouth when some junkie has you in a headlock??? Wouldnt know what you would catch! Does KM teach you special hygienic biting procedures?

However bites work..simple and fast. Look at Paul Vunak he has a whole DVD dedicated to biting. (amongs all other aspects of fighting). He spent 6 years teching techniques like bites to the US Navy SEALS most elite units. If its good enough for the SEALS to use, i'll model the best.

Its fallacious reasoning to assume that because the SEALS use it that it is valid. How often do the seals engage in ONE on ONE mortal combat? Id much rather listen to the opinions of door staff who get in scraps all week and dont have the luxury of dealing out death blows left right and centre.

gcdublin · 27-01-2005 3:25pm

When did getting bite by another person become ok?

When I get in to spar, I expect to be hit, it comes with the territory. In KM I'm not lashing elbows into people's heads that what pads are for. By the same token I'm not biting them and screaming -that what visualising is for.

People should not be getting BITTEN 3 weeks into a self-defence for complete novices. Just for the record there was quite a bit of blood drawn in that class, generally I'm ok with that if someones throws a way-ward technique and I dont get out of the way or move to pads in to block them that might be ok. BUT getting bitten while demonstating how to get out of a headlock! I DON'T THINK THAT IS NORMAL!

columok · 27-01-2005 3:33pm

Well said gc,

If I went into a KM class, because its "for the street" could I break everyones arms with armbars, slam people onto their heads, knee people in the face, choke people into unconsciousness?

Its for the street after all!!!

Colum

gcdublin · 27-01-2005 3:59pm

Ah look I don't want to sound like I'm bashing KM, it's teachers or pupils I'm not at all. All I'm saying is having other training it's not for me. It was very agressive as opposed to defensive, and not particularly practical to me that's all.

Fair play to those who day it. At least they are getting off their butts to do something instead of sitting at home saying "how rough ireland is getting". I just hope courses like this don't make things worse by giving people a false sense of security or increasing their aggressivness.

There's an old diagram I saw many moons ago about people when they start martial arts, the same would apply for this area I'd say. At the start when they learn a bit they think they are unstoppable, it takes time before they realise they are only starting out. I hope intense courses like this based on teaching skills fast dont make people think they are invincable or know way more then they do y'know?

Millionaire · 27-01-2005 4:26pm

If I put you in a headlock (not saying this in an aggro chestbeating way

) you could try and bite me as much as you like. 6 years of rugby have taught me to ignore biting. I dont believe that its an effective attack unless youre gonna be opening up an artery. Id much rather rely on my Greco Roman Wrestling Headlock escapes. Then I could slam the guy, sit on him and bite him all day (not that thats what floats my boat

). And do you really wanna start spilling blood with your mouth when some junkie has you in a headlock??? Wouldnt know what you would catch! Does KM teach you special hygienic biting procedures?

I have n't yet seen a person stand still when some bites them and not jump...even with a simulated bite...so with respect...I don't think you'd me any different in reaction. However remember I said I have plenty of other escapes that work for me from the head lock situation, so a bite of course will not be the first route I go. though as I said it is the equalizer when needed and a very valuable tool to have if you need it.

Its fallacious reasoning to assume that because the SEALS use it that it is valid. How often do the seals engage in ONE on ONE mortal combat? Id much rather listen to the opinions of door staff who get in scraps all week and dont have the luxury of dealing out death blows left right and centre.[/QUOTE]

I think if the SEALS use it , that is the ultimate acid test of validity. there is no doubt about that. remember these elite units are the pros whose are trained for life or death situations.

dabhal · 27-01-2005 5:06pm

gcdublin wrote:

I remember one case in particular when we were practising getting out of headlocks, using any means possible and the guy I had in a headlock bit my side. I don't mean pretended to bite, I mean actually did it. The next day I had a nice big bruise there where I was biten.

Absolutely unacceptable, I’m disgusted that such a thing could be allowed happen in a training environment.
The health and safety implications are obvious.
But we didn’t get all the fact on this:
Where the ground rules laid out in the beginning?
Was this encouraged?
How did the instructor respond when it happened?

On the whole "Navy Seals do it" argument, in a general concept this sort of reasoning is used to impress immature people who don't know any better. It’s the same as the wise old man telling his students about the death touch technique; it’s designed to create an air of credibility and awe for the students but is in reality just a lot of talk.

Millionaire wrote:

I have n't yet seen a person stand still when some bites them and not jump...even with a simulated bite...so with respect...I don't think you'd me any different in reaction. However remember I said I have plenty of other escapes that work for me from the head lock situation, so a bite of course will not be the first route I go. though as I said it is the equalizer when needed and a very valuable tool to have if you need it.

I have, a side alley beside waltons in dublin, two guys in a clinch one was biting into the others back while the biten guy was pounding the other guys face, neither let go, seriously opened my eyes to a lot of my beliefs in MA.

BestOfTheBest wrote:

That Comiskey Fella is a sap. I would love to give him a go anytime. I've done a lot of training in different styles (judo, Kyokashinkai etc.) and served with the army but I'm just a regular Joe and don't think I'm a brilliant fighter or anything. I'd love to prove that sap wrong - have you seen his website full of hype - The Tony Quinn of Martial Arts - Promise you the world to take your cash. I've had to use fighting skills during my time in the field of duty and I wonder if Pat has ever. If he's too chicken to give me a go then how about his top student? I'll prove it's all a load of crap and scrap on behalf of the regular fella - It's all about fitness (he doesn't look like he has any!) and mental strength. Well sap?

Not very helpful comments best, plus your own statements could be considered to be "a load of crap" aswell. At least Mr. Comiskey is out there in full public view. Some people here, myself included continue to remain anoymous and as such making claims about ourselves is pointless.
If you can't make a comment that actually contributes to the debate please don't bother.

Dabhal

Millionaire · 27-01-2005 6:07pm

dabhal wrote:

Sure people make comments to maket themselves. However remember KM is the offical system of Isreali special forces, and was developed by them. and fact Paul Vunak did train navy SEALS for 6 years on a full time basis. see wwwfighting.net for his references. So technique I am referring to is used by these groups.
I
As for bites, sure Dabhal , they will not work all the time. once approx 4 years ago I was attacked in dublin, by a thug a lot bigger and heavier than me, for no reason (mistaken identity I think) and started pounding the crap out of me (after he tried to throw me through window of blockbuster video). I had drink on board, hit him 2 rights and he did not flinch. ended up him straddling me on wet pavement , raining punches down on my face. If it was not for an eye gouge and a bite, I tell you I could be in a wheel chair today. an eye gouge and a bite, saved my life that night, my kickboxing did not, and I was doing no KM back then. so thats why I am pro techniques like this, cause it saved my bloody life!

you get attacked out of blue from your blind side, when your merry, my some thug bigger and heavier, who obviously was not new to random acts of violence, and starts to whack you with punches before your realise where you are....you only got one shot mate and I took it, and am happy to say defeated the idiot, and I hope he learned his lesson not to pick on smaller people.

Yes agree with Dabhal, that is a very personal attack, and serves no purpose in some of us debating techniques and systems etc. None of us have slagged off each other nor the systems we used.

It those seem that some people on here have a vendette against KM and Patrick Cumiskey. That I do not understand. As I said in another post I am doing martial arts approx 20 years (on and off) both traditional and modern, and I think KM is an excellent system for defense, you can learn fast and simple. and I have seen people come in and a few hours later with training and mentoring they are hitting the pads as good as some experienced martial artists. in fact some even have out shone practicing martial artists in ability and grit after 12 weeks training. perhaps because they come in without a chip on the shoulder, and are keen to give 110% , it is an amazing transformation, and excellent to see. of course KM does not have all the answers,none of us do, but it sure gives people who never learned any self defense an edge.

Anyway there is plenty of other martial arts groups out there who do short term courses for people to get a quick schooling in self defense.
here is a link to one , have a look at this web site. It looks good.

www.cqcireland.com

I am not familar with this style, though I am sure it is excellent too, maybe some of you lads on here know it? is it liked to MMA or more TA?

and there is one other doing similar too though I have not the link to hand, if I find it I will post too.

Millionaire · 27-01-2005 6:45pm

In addition to my post...

Re biting. In KM we do not really bite people, but it is simulated of course as a back up technique. when I refer to its effectiveiness, I refer to the above mentioned incident that happened me. just for the record.

I believe to be effective, you must train in all fighting distances and areas. and at least have some basic techniques for all areas.

I lead a very busy work life and time is very limited for me, so KM gives me the edge with its simple techniques, god forbid I ever have to defend myself again.

In fact if I had the time, (which I don't) I would be doing a night of MMA in somewhere like straightblast or somewhere so I would have ability in their angle, to allow me to stay ahead of the pack, in addition to my KM, and the little bit of kickboxing I still do. I would love to do muay thai too, but again time prevents me ,so I make good what I have.

Its a bad mouse that depends on the one hole!

pma-ire · 27-01-2005 7:49pm

Millionaire wrote:

Anyway there is plenty of other martial arts groups out there who do short term courses for people to get a quick schooling in self defense.
here is a link to one , have a look at this web site. It looks good.

www.cqcireland.com

I am not familar with this style, though I am sure it is excellent too, maybe some of you lads on here know it? is it liked to MMA or more TA?

and there is one other doing similar too though I have not the link to hand, if I find it I will post too.

I have seen this another site as a link. I think it was the one I posted about?

It look like MMA? But who knows?????

Colm_OReilly · 27-01-2005 10:02pm

Checked out that close quarter combat website. Didn't like the scaremongering one bit. That's going to attract people who really need to be in a friendlier environment.

Millionaire,

Please take JK up on his offer for a free class. I really believe this would be of benefit for you.

Lots of love,
Colm

dabhal · 28-01-2005 12:08pm

Millionaire wrote:

In addition to my post...

Re biting. In KM we do not really bite people, but it is simulated of course as a back up technique. when I refer to its effectiveiness, I refer to the above mentioned incident that happened me. just for the record.

I believe to be effective, you must train in all fighting distances and areas. and at least have some basic techniques for all areas.

I lead a very busy work life and time is very limited for me, so KM gives me the edge with its simple techniques, god forbid I ever have to defend myself again.

In fact if I had the time, (which I don't) I would be doing a night of MMA in somewhere like straightblast or somewhere so I would have ability in their angle, to allow me to stay ahead of the pack, in addition to my KM, and the little bit of kickboxing I still do. I would love to do muay thai too, but again time prevents me ,so I make good what I have.

Its a bad mouse that depends on the one hole!

I don't think I made myself clear enough on this topic.

The incident where a student bit another student is not acceptable. Period.
I don't rule out anything in an SD suitation but you don't need to actually do it in training in the same way I wouldn't bareknuckle punch, palmheel in the nose someone in training. I pretty much know it will do damage.
The biting option is still one I would only use if I had no choice...Hepatitis etc.

Millionaire wrote:

Sure people make comments to maket themselves. However remember KM is the offical system of Isreali special forces, and was developed by them. and fact Paul Vunak did train navy SEALS for 6 years on a full time basis. see wwwfighting.net for his references. So technique I am referring to is used by these groups.

I stand by what I said; I really could not care less what navy seals train in. It has no bearing on self defence in Ireland.
I think it was columok who said a better example would be a door man in Dublin and I think he right. I'm sure navy seals have a different set of priorities possibly killing people (I don't know, never in any army and know absolutely nothing on the subject) but i'm pretty sure it does not relate to an Irish Citizen walking down the street.
On it being a marketing tech. Well I can imagine the type of people impressed by that sort of thing.

Dabhal

Dabhal

gcdublin · 28-01-2005 12:30pm

I have no personal vendeta against anyway - especially not KM or Pat. I said all along it wasn't for me. This is an open forum in which I am giving my opinion, and my reasons for it. People who practise KM on a regular basis will have a different view to me, and that's fine too.

Millionaire you said "Re biting. In KM we do not really bite people, " well I did a KM course, and I got bitten. My entire point behind the biting story was that novices are taken in and taught lethal techniques straight off. It does not take a genius to see that this is not a good idea. Self defence / martial arts and most areas in life take practice - especially ones that involve potentially saving your own life. People who learn self-defence courses in a short period may believe they know more than they do down the line.

It is generally perceived that in a confrontational situation, once you gain control you are now the aggressor and not defending yourself anymore. So if someone attacks me and I heal-palm them to the point they are backing / stumbling off, and I can run away, if I continue to strike them this is not self-defence anymore. I got my window of escape, and chose to stay and fight from a position of control, I am now the aggressor.

If someone leaves an course after learning quite aggressive "lethal stopping" moves as they are advertised, will they have the control to stop when they should, or are they just going to add more violence to the equation? Also will they be more on edge, and end up causing more confrontations instead of having the good sense and training to say "I'm confident enough in myself to handle most things" and not end up flying off the handle, because they have limited training and think they "know" self defence.

I said all along this isn't personal - just my 2 cents with respect to short courses which are advertised as being aggressive by definition. They teach lethal moves but do not have the duration to teach the most important items to accompany these tools of self-control, judgement and avoidance.

Millionaire · 28-01-2005 1:28pm

dabhal wrote:

I don't think I made myself clear enough on this topic.

The incident where a student bit another student is not acceptable. Period.
I don't rule out anything in an SD suitation but you don't need to actually do it in training in the same way I wouldn't bareknuckle punch, palmheel in the nose someone in training. I pretty much know it will do damage.
The biting option is still one I would only use if I had no choice...Hepatitis etc.

I stand by what I said; I really could not care less what navy seals train in. It has no bearing on self defence in Ireland.
I think it was columok who said a better example would be a door man in Dublin and I think he right. I'm sure navy seals have a different set of priorities possibly killing people (I don't know, never in any army and know absolutely nothing on the subject) but i'm pretty sure it does not relate to an Irish Citizen walking down the street.
On it being a marketing tech. Well I can imagine the type of people impressed by that sort of thing.

Dabhal

Dabhal

Dabhal

How can you say systems/techniques from like likes of navy seals have no bearing on the average guy in ireland, where in your next sentance you admit to knowing "absolutly nothing on the subject". thats a total contradiction of your point! (man I should have been a barrister! :-)

Its the techniques I had to use to save my self from the vicious attack I experienced as in eye gouge and bite, quite typically would be found in military type systems. So I my real life experience Yes they are totally relevant in Ireland. If I was not for them I could fatally injured from the beating the thug was giving me, before I managed to turn the tables.

These military systems used by special forces etc are referred to as "Combatives" and in fact there is much info on the web. and Krava Maga is a pure combative system. I think if people want to train in these systems, thats their choice and they should not be judged.

Going deeper into it, I believe if you go back 100s of years the original forms of martial arts when people used them for life and death, would have techniques very similar. gouges, claws to vital points..ala "dirty tricks". look at the real application of techiques hidden in any kata/form, think about it. IMHO what happened was people put structure on these styles on the original meanings, applications were lost.

As for door men, yes I know and have trained with door men in the past (and done door work myself). some can handle themselves, alot cant and survive with the strenght in numbers. its easy to be hard/forceful when you got 3 buddies behind you to back you up. (been there, seen it etc etc)

For door training look at Geoff Thompson, he advocates the pre emptive strike, as in the door man hitting the other guy first...and bloody hard too! I got all his videos and have conversed with Geoff my email in the past asking questions re this trainings etc..
now thats aggressive training!

as for GC getting bitten in KM. well I have been there almost 2 years and in training the biting is simulated. I can only project that someone may have bitten you by accident.

dabhal · 28-01-2005 1:56pm

Millionaire wrote:

Dabhal

How can you say systems/techniques from like likes of navy seals have no bearing on the average guy in ireland, where in your next sentance you admit to knowing "absolutly nothing on the subject". thats a total contradiction of your point! (man I should have been a barrister! :-)

Its the techniques I had to use to save my self from the vicious attack I experienced as in eye gouge and bite, quite typically would be found in military type systems. So I my real life experience Yes they are totally relevant in Ireland. If I was not for them I could fatally injured from the beating the thug was giving me, before I managed to turn the tables.

I see where your coming from and Like I said I don't know what training these guys do and I was making an assumption(as a good friend of mine loves to say..."assumption, the mother of all F*&kups") so I stand corrected.

Millionaire wrote:

These military systems used by special forces etc are referred to as "Combatives" and in fact there is much info on the web. and Krava Maga is a pure combative system. I think if people want to train in these systems, thats their choice and they should not be judged.

I was trying to make the point that the average person in Ireland like myself cannot relate to navy seals, fbi etc and that the people who would see this as attractive are the young hero types who want to be able to beat up several people movie style.

Millionaire wrote:

Going deeper into it, I believe if you go back 100s of years the original forms of martial arts when people used them for life and death, would have techniques very similar. gouges, claws to vital points..ala "dirty tricks". look at the real application of techiques hidden in any kata/form, think about it. IMHO what happened was people put structure on these styles on the original meanings, applications were lost.

I'm sure they did but I never said anything against any of that

Millionaire wrote:

as for GC getting bitten in KM. well I have been there almost 2 years and in training the biting is simulated. I can only project that someone may have bitten you by accident.

Glad to hear it, I did ask for more information on that incident and look forward to a reply.

gcdublin · 28-01-2005 2:28pm

About the biting thing nothing really more to say. We were doing escapes and one of them was from a headlock. We practised reaching back for the face, kicking shins, grabing "body parts"

etc. One thing said was if all else fails turn your head sideways into their love-handles and bite.

Later on when practising, the guy I had in the headlock went a bit too far and did actual bite. I wasn't choking him or anything - it was a firm enough headlock, but he could have easily tapped out or got out of it in any of the numerous other ways being taught.

That's it really.

Colm_OReilly · 28-01-2005 3:19pm

The whole Navy Seals, Israeli Army, Irsih Rangers etc an appeal to authority, and as such it is fallacious. Just because some one in a position of authority does or says something does not make it fact, or make the inference true.

On the subject of bites, eye gouges, and all other nasty stuff: Anybody who can control an aggressor has no need for these things, and has no need to fear them.

Peace Out,
Colm

Millionaire · 28-01-2005 4:04pm

No Colm your missing the point, whe whole military thing "combatives" is training in the systems or techniques used by these groupings. and KM as as system was totally and purely developed by Isreali Defense Forces for unarmed use in actual combat.
I am only refering to the practice of techniques used by any of them for unarmed combat. I do not teach martial arts, and I have no interest in using stuff like this to promote myself, cause there is no point to that for me. just like to practice these types of techniques.

As for my comments on the "nasty stuff" if you have drink on you, are out for a happy night with friends, and out of nowhere a 6' foot 4 17 stone ish thug starts beating the head of you sucker punch style from your blind side. there is a very very very slim chance you will recover to use your techniques to control an aggressor as you will be dazed stunned shocked and scared like I was. Trust me on it Colm, when it gets to that stage its dog eat dog.

I got a buddy who has over 50 full contact ring fights internationally, has worked doors in dublin over 20 years (roughest doors) and is a hard hard guy who would have no qualms about hurting people and has had many many confrontations and no fear (I disapprove of this 110% naturally). andway one night he looked the wrong way for a second, got a hook of sovergn ring sto temple and went down.

facing a guy in the ring (like I used to) or you now in the cage (and I respect that a million % cause thats a real tough place to be) you are prepared mentally, you know whats coming...ish, you are in top peak fighting form and your sober nautrally. but out there when we happy drunk, with your chick, not expecting it, the techniques we all think we know goes out the door so fast. and sometimes just to survive you have to do it.

I had to defend myself in club last year, pick on by another big dude (for some reason they all pick in me!!!!) anyway no dirty tricks needed there, put it was messy, aggressive, and your off balance as tables, chairs , people all around you!

I am not aruging for the sake of it biters versus non biters. I am for all our good pointing out that street situations are messy, fast, usually come when you least expect it, and more often than not all the techniques or moves go out the window fast for many many different reasons.

anyway its not a nice subject, and I do not want to be telling war stories. the reason I am is to back my points up with real like situations that happened me personally, so you can see I have a real validity to say what I am saying and the points I am arguing.

Do ya all see my point ->

Cheers Dudes : - )

pma-ire · 28-01-2005 5:43pm

Millionaire,

I have to agree with you, when you are talking about SD then it is "time to get down and dirty". I also agreed with parts of your earlier post. But on the part about claiming that a style the biz because the Nazi ninja death squad used it. Is only a selling ploy from what I have seen of styles that claim such a thing.

From what I have seen the SBG and MMA guys don't like to do anything that is not allowed in MMA rules. And that is fine for them. But it don't mean that everyone is a Langer because they don't train exactly that way. A MMA comp is a great test of fitness, speed, timing and technique (MMA). As is a TKD comp for TKD and etc.. etc..

It is better to walk in mans shoes to understand his point of view. But then they might not always fit you

Ryokossei · 28-01-2005 7:18pm

pma-ire wrote:

Look at your style from the outside in, and open your eyes :eek:

I know I'm late...give me a break, I've been dealing with a death.

however, I have looked at Krav Maga from the outside. When my TKD studio was sold out from under my sensei I had to choose wether or not I wanted to begin in Krav Maga. You see, the instructors at this school knew my sensei and offered to take her students under their wing, continue to allow her to teach out of their school, and they would pay her as an instructor. She did so, but after a while family problems, divorce, and what not got in the way. Shannon Lukeman-Hiromasa, one of the owners/head instructors (any Krav fans have probably heard of her and her husband, James) has a 5th degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, so she continued to instruct us in that. However, I had watched enough of the Krav Classes (I have worked at the studio as office wench, and youth instructor for just over a year now), and had had my time to judge them from a traditinal point of view. Before then I never beleived my other black belts were pointless...but now, I do see that. I am proud of them, because I worked hard, but I am even more proud of my Green belt in Krav Maga. I have the beautifuly good fortune of being able to say that I've taken an outsiders view, as well as an insiders.

By the by, also, for all of you who don't think Krav works, lemme testify to it! ^_^ I had some problems with a couple o' thugs a while back, when I was getting my dad Taco Bell. Yes, I spilt my soda all over my car, and stepped on a taco everything of mine was okay. However, those two men had alot to think about that night in the new county prison (yay back-waters hick ville!!) If I, a 16-year old, 5'4", whimpy as heck white girl, can defend herself against two very tall, very muscular, very tan, and appareantly very horny men, without the help of the Taco Bell employees, I do think that gives Krav Maga some relevance. Afterall, it's the only art that ever taught me to defend myself with my arms behind my back (and that was a level one technique!)

I understand why many of you are so critical of it - I was too, but how many of you have actually tried it?

and to he who asked about Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Boxing, Muay Thai, Judo, Sambo, Wrestling, and Savate , I have actually tried many of them. Jiujitsu, Boxing(wasn't a big fan of it, but it's just because I was a 12-year old goin' against a bunch of highschool boys), Judo, Wrestling, and I am currently in Muay Thai classes. I can't say, however, I've tried Sambo or Savate, but five out of seven ain't bad, right? ~72% isn't too shabby...

pma-ire · 28-01-2005 7:35pm

Ryokossei wrote:

I know I'm late...give me a break, I've been dealing with a death.

Sorry to hear that. I hope all is well.

Ryokossei wrote:

but I am even more proud of my Green belt in Krav Maga. I have the beautifuly good fortune of being able to say that I've taken an outsiders view, as well as an insiders.

If your a green belt in KM then this is a school of MA you are training in?

The gripe that alot of peebs on here have is the seminar only thing. And the "you can be deadly after one course". But if you are going to regular classes then this is a different story.

Colm_OReilly · 28-01-2005 11:44pm

Millionaire,

As for my comments on the "nasty stuff" if you have drink on you, are out for a happy night with friends, and out of nowhere a 6' foot 4 17 stone ish thug starts beating the head of you sucker punch style from your blind side. there is a very very very slim chance you will recover to use your techniques to control an aggressor as you will be dazed stunned shocked and scared like I was. Trust me on it Colm, when it gets to that stage its dog eat dog.

So you're telling me that what I train day in day out, against athletes with a high skill level, good fitness, intelligence, and sobriety, won't work against some unco-ordinated drunk? But a bite or eye poke will get him off me, and remove me from this disadvantage.

I am for all our good pointing out that street situations are messy, fast, usually come when you least expect it, and more often than not all the techniques or moves go out the window fast for many many different reasons.

Why do you think they fail? Why do you think they fail?

On the whole subject of rules vs no rules fighting. It is not fun, and not healthy to train with all those nasty things in mind. A sporting context is far more rewarding, for a myriad of reasons, than constantly worrying about the dreaded street.

Also, and this is anecdotal evidence but other SBGi coaches have similar stories, I'm lucky in that I train in a college club. Every year, I get up to 30 big strong guys walk onto the mat. There's a lot of ego in those first classes, which is natural with young males. The techniques I show I'm able to pull off against all of them. These guys aren't given any ruleset before training, just an objective. I've had people try to eye gouge and all that jazz, and it's never worked.

As for combatives, maybe you'd like to check out the testimonials to the ISR Matrix

Peace and Love Y'All,
Colm

paul moran · 29-01-2005 12:17am

Obviously you can't account for a sucker punch or being blind sided by a big thug or groups of thugs......

But you can raise your Awareness. Self Awareness is something that should be emphasised alot more in Martial Arts schools, SD Courses and regular day to day school/work/ community groups/employment etc.
Remember Self Defence, Self Awareness does not only refer to you as an individual but it also refers to your friends and family.

How many times do you see a girl storm out of club because of an argument with "the fella"? How many times do you see lads barely concious strolling home? How often do you see a women in a dark carpark, searching her handbag for her keys? How many times do you see people leave their car unlocked while they go and pay for their petrol? How many times do you see teenagers displaying wealth (mobile phone, jewellery, cash, mp3 player) while standing waiting for the last bus? How many times do you see people at ATM's focussing only on the ATM receipt and cash in their hand? A small list of examples but I'm sure you can all add to it

Raising peoples Awareness can allow people to Anticipate what may happen in certain environments, then they can Avoid trouble. Of course this is not always the case but taking Action should hopefully be a rarity and always a last resort.

Just wanted to emphasis that point!

Paul Moran

pma-ire · 29-01-2005 12:31am

I don't have a problem with MMA.

It has to be respected for all it is. The most mixed rules comps that you can get into, a true test of your stamina, and basic skill within the rules of the match.

But some people don't have the time, will or ability to get into physical combat competition. Still they want to learn how to defend themselves, and should be allowed to. If you say training of the street is a waist of time, then I have to disagree (all MMA lads seem to repeat the same mantra?).

Anyone can train in the JKD style. Claiming that you are the only right way and damming all that don't agree, is only putting yourself down as a person. But if thats what makes you happy :rolleyes:

Musashi · 29-01-2005 7:53am

Lads,
Just had an e-mail from Pat Cumiskey regarding some of the stuff in this thread.He's told me already he's got limited access to the web so banging up an e-mail to me and sending it is probably a better option for him than replying on here directly.At least he is still browsing through and may yet be in a position to join in more fully with the forum.
Here is his e-mail

Just A quick note to let you know that perhaps your discussion thread has
lost its integrity - A pity because healthy debate is always useful.

You appear to have a number of new posts arriving including the guy
John123xyc who claimed to train with me - HE DID NOT TRAIN WITH ME - See
below (an unusual email address don't you think)his nickname here is the
same email he used to register with my site.

Interesting that when a positive post is made by a newbie it must be me but
when it negative '- it a no bs comment at last!"

On final note under no circumstances is biting allowed in my classes, it is
taught as a total last ditch option and of course only simulated?

Again I don't know who the person saying they where bitten, if they were
then and I knew it had happened I would have intervened !

It surprising to me that this person didn't know he actually did a 12 week
course not an 8 week on (and when he spend 3 months of is life last year)
NOW that would have been dam expensive! As opposed to the 30 hours everybody
else got!

Also for what is worth , I don't plan to enter any beauty contests!

Perhaps the moderation of the site should be looked at!

Best wishes
Patrick

Musashi · 29-01-2005 7:55am

He also included some e-mail correspondence he's had with a poster here before?

Original Message
From: John Malone [mailto:john123xyz@yahoo.com]
Sent: 27 January 2005 13:59
To: info@kravmagaireland.com
Subject: Re: your post

**** YOU YA BLEEDIN' EEJIT. YA COULDNT FITE YOUR WAY
OUT OF A PAPER BAG. AND YOUR A RIP OFF ARTIST AND FAT
AND UGLY TO

--- info@kravmagaireland.com wrote:

> Hello John
>
> This is Patrick Cumiskey here from Krav Maga Ireland
>
>
> You post on boards.ie was mentioned to me
>
> Obviously your comments are disappointing
>
> Perhaps you can help me, I attach you registration
> details below, it appears
> you registered with me in December 2004 and came
> across my classes in the
> gaiety . I have not run any courses since you
> registered
>
> I have a database of all people who have trained
> with me, and I am surprised
> that I can't find you,( I would have needed your
> email to reserve you place
> on the course) also I don't remember nor does my
> database show your name
> (John Malone) correct me if this is wrong
>
> As one of the posters mentioned I offer a money back
> guarantee so if you let
> me know which course you actually took and where and
> If you were
> dissatisfied and we can perhaps address this
>
> To be honest your comments regarding your fellow
> course participants and
> more disturbing. I can't relate to that
>
>
> With regard to comments regarding control I can
> only say 1200 people
> trained , a few bruises, a couple of sprained ankles
> but no hospital trips !
>
>
> So please do come back to me
>
> Regards
> Patrick
>
>
>
Original Message
> From: john123xyz@yahoo.com
> [mailto:john123xyz@yahoo.com]
> Sent: 29 December 2004 21:10
> To: info@kravmagaireland.com
> Subject: Register
>
>
> NAME: John Malone
>
> FROM: john123xyz@yahoo.com
>
> WHERE?: gaeity
>
> SUBJECT: Register
>
> TO: info@kravmagaireland.com
>
> GOTOURL: http://www.kravmagaireland.com/index.htm
>
> This mail has been sent by Lycos Mailer
> from the page http://www.kravmagaireland.com/

Im2Lazy · 29-01-2005 10:03am

This quote was taken directly from www.gracieacademy.com
"The world famous Gracie family stands as a shining example of the proven methods they teach, through their amazing successes in the no-holds-barred arena and the introduction of ground fighting into the training regimen of nearly every major martial art, military unit and law enforcement organization worldwide."

They teach there techniques to the Military and horribly :rolleyes: they also advertise it, so what's the problem with other systems doing the same?

And you can't tell me anyone who got into BJJ did so just cos they like rolling around on the floor with guys :rolleyes: . They bought into what was being advertised on the TV on UFC etc. where BJJ fighters were winning alot, you just wanted a competive edge in the arena.

I agree with pma-ire

A MMA comp is a great test of fitness, speed, timing and technique (MMA). As is a TKD comp for TKD and etc.. etc..

I've seen UFC fights that have gone on for over an hour sometimes more usually involving Royce Gracie but most street fight on average last 30 seconds so you don't need to have great fitness speed or timing just good simple techniques and the KM techniques are effective and simple.

I'd say alot of BJJ techniques would be great too which is why I'm going to try it, so instead of dismissing KM try it!

An enlightened man knows thats he doesn't know everything, and only through new experience can he grow as a person.

iguana · 29-01-2005 11:03am

Anyone know of a knitting teacher in Dublin?

Yes, There is one knitting teacher in Dublin: Contact...............

Yes I went to that class, I will continue going, it was great. I learned valuable skills and after 12 weeks I made my own Jumper!!!!!

How do you know Knitting is better than sewing?

I don't but I like knitting, I hope you enjoy sewing, but for now knitting is enough for me.

No sewing is the only way, I've never done any knitting but once I saw a jumper and it looked crap. How do you know it's warmer than the shirt I sewed.
If you tested your jumper against my shirt in a tearing competion who would win?
I hope someone tears your jumper and then you have to fix it..........................................................................................................................And on and on for 7 pages!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You people are weird!!!!!!

This whole thread was somebody asking if anyone knew of a KM class. Someone told them who did. Someone else said they were on a class and they enjoyed it, so much that they wanted to keep it up. Then slowly they started getting attacked from all sides, where even quite early on someone said he hoped the km students get attacked!!!!!

Does anyone see what's wrong with this picture???

The thread wasn't "I think krav maga is the best style ever and I challenge you all to prove me wrong (through either meaningful or complete nonsense debate)"
Grow up! Cop on! Get a f***ing life!!!
Even those who have reasonable doubts about km, this wasn't the place for airing them, start a new thread if you must, but why you just can't have quite confidence in your own style I don't know.

I wonder if "santa" knows what he's done?

Im2Lazy · 29-01-2005 11:59am

He's totally right we totally got off the topic of this thread, sorry Santa !
And we are weird !!!!!!

Truce guys lets, just leave this topic alone .

columok · 29-01-2005 2:47pm

Iguana,

in your jumping in and bitching about the thread youve fundamentally missed the point of this discussion and internet forums in general. Internet forums are not their to announce information in a purely objective manner. They are a place (albeit virtual) where people can argue their opinions on a given topic.

This entire discussion began when someone gave an opinion on KM. People countered this as they are perfectly entitled to do. I dont necessarily agree with ad hominem attacks in internet discussions but the majority of arguments were against the persons standpoint rather than the person themselves.

KM claims to be something. It advertises this to people. KM instructors take money off people on this basis! Fair enough. KM makes bold claims. People are entitled to question these claims.

This whole thread was somebody asking if anyone knew of a KM class. Someone told them who did. Someone else said they were on a class and they enjoyed it, so much that they wanted to keep it up. Then slowly they started getting attacked from all sides, where even quite early on someone said he hoped the km students get attacked!!!!!

The actual assertion was about the effectiveness of KM. This was in dispute!

The "getting attacked thing" was so the person could learn a lesson and the folly of their ways before its too late!

Even those who have reasonable doubts about km, this wasn't the place for airing them, start a new thread if you must, but why you just can't have quite confidence in your own style I don't know.

I have plenty of confidence in the effectiveness of MMA. Anything that claims to be something that I feel is wrong or misguided will be challenged by me.

columok · 29-01-2005 2:57pm

Im2Lazy,

And you can't tell me anyone who got into BJJ did so just cos they like rolling around on the floor with guys . They bought into what was being advertised on the TV on UFC etc. where BJJ fighters were winning alot, you just wanted a competive edge in the arena.

Started BJJ to see what all the fuss was about. I dont do it for a competitive edge. Its fun, great for fitness and effective!

I've seen UFC fights that have gone on for over an hour sometimes more usually involving Royce Gracie but most street fight on average last 30 seconds so you don't need to have great fitness speed or timing just good simple techniques and the KM techniques are effective and simple.

Ive seen similarly long MMA fights (eg. Royce Vs. Sakuraba 2001 Pride FC).

The point is that they are two world class fighters who have put in years of training and months of pre-fight preparation and their skill in a way cancels the other's out! A highly trained MMA fighter would rip through some drunken lout in a post-pub street fight. They arent gonna have to sit on them for half an hour waiting for a decision. Its all about context. You could put me in a ring against a person with no fighting experience and I could batter him. You could put me in against a pro-MMA fighter and Id get battered. That doesnt mean I cant fight. Context is the key.

vasch_ro · 29-01-2005 4:23pm

paul moran wrote:

Obviously you can't account for a sucker punch or being blind sided by a big thug or groups of thugs......

But you can raise your Awareness. Self Awareness is something that should be emphasised alot more in Martial Arts schools, SD Courses and regular day to day school/work/ community groups/employment etc.
Remember Self Defence, Self Awareness does not only refer to you as an individual but it also refers to your friends and family.

Paul Moran

I think Pauls brought up an important point here your never going be able forsee a sucker punch, (unless perhaps you have a dan grade in ninjitsu where i believe they do a test for this type of thing.) One thing that struck me when I was on the STAB course last year was that the guy emphasised how are you going to remember to perform finite movements while under pressure,
gross motor movements are easier to learn and easier to pull off under pressure. Your not fiddling around for an eye poke etc etc. I think it is fair to say K M makes some bold claims. I think it is also fair to say that it is probably quite effective if thought over a period of time with resisting partners. I think it is also fair to say one weekend no way !!

there are a lot of people throwing around statistics here re street fights , I think its fair to say there is no average street fight time as no one has collated any data , on duration or frequency of streetfights.

Finally as an aside An Garda Siochana train in Tai Ho Jitsu, and thats no great claim for Tai Ho Jitsu now is it ?

vasch_ro · 29-01-2005 4:24pm

columok wrote:

Started BJJ to see what all the fuss was about. I dont do it for a competitive edge. Its fun, great for fitness and effective!

.

I always thought u took up BJJ so you could wear shiny spandex!!!

Clive · 30-01-2005 4:12pm

pma-ire wrote:

If you say training of the street is a waist of time, then I have to disagree (all MMA lads seem to repeat the same mantra?).

*Fumbles for script*
...waste of time...Aliveness...unhealthy attitude...

Seriously though, a lot of MMA people react badly to "training for the street" because it was one of the main reasons charlatans gave for not stepping into a ring. "Our techniques are too deadly"..."we train for the street not competition"..."our teacher doesn't want to kill anyone so he doesn't enter, because he would you know".

I know plenty of people who train in MMA to be able to defend themselves. Sure they may enter competitions and enjoy them, whether for fun or as a test of their abilities, but their main reason is to keep themselves safe in a fight.

Colm_OReilly · 30-01-2005 5:08pm

Clive's right. The type and method of training is the ame for people who just want to learn basic self defence as those who want to compete. The difference is the intensity, duration, and frequency for competitors.

Coupe · 31-01-2005 3:01am

Eh no its not! Its the targets you aim for, the motivation for doing so and the rules governing your actions or more importantly the lack of them depending on the situation!

One is a form of competition and excercise, the other in its rawest form is survival and self preservation.

pma-ire · 31-01-2005 9:46am

Coupe wrote:

Eh no its not! Its the targets you aim for, the motivation for doing so and the rules governing your actions or more importantly the lack of them depending on the situation!

One is a form of competition and excercise, the other in its rawest form is survival and self preservation.

What you say is right Coupe. But I think the MMA style can be applied in the right context if the will is there.

Seriously though, a lot of MMA people react badly to "training for the street" because it was one of the main reasons charlatans gave for not stepping into a ring. "Our techniques are too deadly"..."we train for the street not competition"..."our teacher doesn't want to kill anyone so he doesn't enter, because he would you know".

I know plenty of people who train in MMA to be able to defend themselves. Sure they may enter competitions and enjoy them, whether for fun or as a test of their abilities, but their main reason is to keep themselves safe in a fight.

My comment earilier on MMA...

has to be respected for all it is. The most mixed rules comps that you can get into, a true test of your stamina, and basic skill within the rules of the match.

The fundementals and skills are all valid and Christ from what I've seen most of the comp guys are hard nuts that could walk through anyone. If a practical approach to a street situation could be taken then I would be happier (JK's offer seems to be addressing this).

What I mean by addressing this situation is thinking how to avoid the dangers of when on the ground and throwing to the ground, eg. hard surfaces and soft bodies with pointly joints. The removal of the single goal of beating the man, and thinking about who is gonna jump on and help him out.

I hav'int seen a comment from any MMA'er on this, and it is the only thing that I have a gripe about.

Tim_Murphy · 31-01-2005 10:17am

What I mean by addressing this situation is thinking how to avoid the dangers of when on the ground and throwing to the ground, eg. hard surfaces and soft bodies with pointly joints. The removal of the single goal of beating the man, and thinking about who is gonna jump on and help him out.

I hav'int seen a comment from any MMA'er on this, and it is the only thing that I have a gripe about.

I don't think there is really a lot you can do about a hard surface. It's going to be hard for everybody no matter what they train.
If you don't have a good enough ground game to beat one person then I think it's a bit pointless to start talking about how to beat multiple opponents on the ground. Realistically, if there is 5 of them and only 1 of you and you're on the ground unless you happen to be in your own King Fu movie at the time then you're most likely f%^ked.

pma-ire · 31-01-2005 10:45am

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Realistically, if there is 5 of them and only 1 of you and you're on the ground unless you happen to be in your own King Fu movie at the time then you're most likely f%^ked.

Tim I think you slightly misunderstood me

(i ) I don't think there is really a lot you can do about a hard surface. It's going to be hard for everybody no matter what they train. You can train to cutdown on the amount of injury you cause yourself when training on a hard ground while grappling an attacker. It just has to be tried out.

(ii ) If you don't have a good enough ground game to beat one person then I think it's a bit pointless to start talking about how to beat multiple opponents on the ground.I don't want to go to the ground if I find myself in a street fight. What I was trying to say was that if it did go to ground then concentrating on the one person will get you jumped on (I know this can happen when standing up also, it's just worst when you are on the ground). So I would be trying to get back up asap. Leaving it harder to the other person to get up so that I can have a chance to run or take other action.

Tim_Murphy · 31-01-2005 11:13am

You can train to cutdown on the amount of injury you cause yourself when training on a hard ground while grappling an attacker. It just has to be tried out.

I did that for a few weeks a while ago because we couldn't train where we normally do because there was exams on. All it meant was that we were a little bit sore and had a few extra bruises.

So I would be trying to get back up asap. Leaving it harder to the other person to get up so that I can have a chance to run or take other action.

Fair enough. I'd would say most people would try to finish it quick and get up. Can be easier said than done though

pma-ire · 31-01-2005 11:28am

Tim_Murphy wrote:

I did that for a few weeks a while ago because we couldn't train where we normally do because there was exams on. All it meant was that we were a little bit sore and had a few extra bruises.

:cool: it's the thought that counts

Tim_Murphy wrote:

Fair enough. I'd would say most people would try to finish it quick and get up. Can be easier said than done though

I would also, once it forms the concept of getting back up asap. If finishing it is the over riding factor then it can keep you down there longer than you can afford to be.

But basic ground pound as I've seen quoted by MMA'ers, would be the thing here and get the Fu*k up and out.

Krav Maga

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