Krav Maga

Im2Lazy

I think the main issue here is "WHAT DO I WANT ?", for myself & COUPE we didn't want to spend our time competing in tournaments or trying to get out black belt.

We wanted to protect ourselves in a street confrontation as quickly and as
effectively as possible without having to train for too long.

Obviously we don't know everything no one does and I'm not saying that other Martial arts have no self defence value....that's where they all came from but nowadays most modern MA's are more sport focused than Defence focuses.

Krav Maga is wholely about Self Defence !

I do argee with DUDARA that "it's always beneficial to learn new techniques" myself personally I am thinking of trying other Martial Arts but not for Self Defence more for fun and to learn more about the other styles.

dudara

We wanted to protect ourselves in a street confrontation as quickly and as effectively as possible without having to train for too long.

first of, it's good that you did the course, but you do have to train regularly at things such as this in order to have any kind of effectiveness.

dudara

It is however a straight forward no holds barred self defense system that has at its core eye gouging, biting, repeated strikes to the groin, face rips and the smashing of joints on the ground to stop your attacker getting up and coming after you after you've put them down amongst other things. Now does that sound like the kind of thing that's appropriate in competition or is instead more likely to be found in the middle of a melee on a street? It ain't pretty or honourable but it gets the job done.

Coupe, we learn all this as well in TKD, we work on traditional stuff, sparring and self-defense, maybe as not as in depth as KM, but we're told not to be afraid of an eye-gouge, smashing the nose, stamping a persons instep or kneecap.

I think that some traditional martial arts are becoming more modern in outlook and incorporating a self-defense element is a sensible thing to do.

Coupe

Well Mick I've made it this far in my life without EVER being in a fight and I fully intend to keep it that way (and no I don't live alone on the top of a mountain in Nepal!).

As for the "too deadly to show" bit you're getting a bit Bruce Lee again!

Look, you are obviously very passionate about MA and thats great. There are many very experianced martial artists on the course (Kempo, Kick Boxing, Ninjitsu come to mind) and all have found it to be a great addition to their already impressive skills. I would be only too delighted for you to learn what I have. There is no big secret to it. Anybody can learn it.

I may indeed end up "mangled" some night as you so charitably put it but it won't be for the want of a self defense system. I'll keep you posted....

Roper

"I think the main issue here is "WHAT DO I WANT ?", for myself & COUPE we didn't want to spend our time competing in tournaments or trying to get out black belt.
We wanted to protect ourselves in a street confrontation as quickly and as
effectively as possible without having to train for too long."

Sounds to me like you wanted a quick fix. And now what you have is an untested system in which you have false confidence.......

Coupe

Dudara, you are right indeed. Remind me not to bump into you the next time I'm out!!!
From the little I know of them the traditional arts have begun to adapt and evolve in the modern age and that is eminently sensible.
I guess the difference is as my probable training partner Im2Lazy puts it "its all about mind set".
In KM they are all targets of first choice not last resort. This is probably the main reason its not designed for competition.

dudara

You've got to realise Coupe, that when we spar, we're fighting in a very set fashion, with a list of rules and points. We will strike to score those points and win the fight.

However, we all know that this is how not to fight in the real world. As a previous poster said, you don't draw a spinning reverse kick in the road. You do something far more effective and dirty. Dirty fighting is what is going to get you home safe. (addendum: If you do fight! best thing is to run)

What I'm trying to say is that most of us here, while having studied traditional arts, are well aware of the reality of street fighting. We're well able to distinguish between the two. TKD, to me, is a sport, but one that also teaches me techniques that might be useful.

Roper

Coupe,
Having viewed the video, a lot of what's being demostrated looks exactly like the sort of defence systems I've seen shown in Kenpo, TKD, Shotokan and other such places down the years. Theres not really much there thats new or original. I'm not saying its not effective, I'm just saying that its probably not too far off what your "too sports orientated" schools are teaching without making any "best ever" claims about it.

The mount bit I have to take issue with though. I've had lads much lighter than me pin me when grappling and that simply wouldn't work on them. Never mind a smaller woman or man trying to throw off a serious attacker.

Its hard to judge something on a video though, especially a staged one so maybe there's something I'm not seeing?

Coupe

Roper, on the contrary. I went out of curiosity as I always wanted to do a martial art of some discription but wasn't prepared to give it the time. KM gave me the oppertunity to learn a wide variety of skills in a relitively short period of time.
However I have now incorporated it into my routine having just started the advanced training program which takes more than a year training 3 times a week.

TwoKingMick

I agree with roper there, i'm bored argueing the merits of self defence systems, but that escape from mount flat-out doesn't work.

Roper

Hmmmmm, making connections here........


TwoKingMick........ are you Sissy?

If so we've met before.



Okay, this whole message looks gay but I promise it makes sense in another context!

TwoKingMick

Yes, i assumed you knew

Coupe

Guys I never made any "best ever" claims about anything and I certainly never made any comparison between the various systems. All I said was it works for me and I enjoy it. You do something different and best of luck to you I'm sure you enjoy it too.
To me KM is a self defense system and 2 hours of interval training rolled into one.

Im2Lazy

I assume you mean that COUPE & I haven't tested it, cos it has been well and truly tested. To be honest I hope I never to have to test it.
As for false confidence I have the confidence that if I needed to I MAY be able to defend myself. That's no more than anyone else including you can say, there is always the unknown elements which we have no control over.

E.G You're a TKD instructor if you got in to a fight with someone on the street he might gets a lucky punch in b4 you have a chance to do anything and you get knocked out and he starts kicking you to death on the side of the road. All your confidence in you practiced MA isn't going to make u any less unconcious or any less dead at the end of it all.

If I do get into situaton I think I will be more able to protect myself now than I was before the course and that's enough for me.

Roper

Mick, come to think of it, I probably should have made the connection a little sooner.
Brain's a wee bit fried these days.

This here is just ridiculous though, if you don't mind me saying so:
"I assume you mean that COUPE & I haven't tested it, cos it has been well and truly tested."
It sounds like you're taking for granted what other people have told you works. I personally wouldn't make such a leap of faith if my own personal protection depended on it.

Just a note on Military systems- how many western soldiers do you think have been in life or death hand to hand combat in say the last ten years?
A lot of whats spouted about these guys is pure rubbish. I had a guy tell me that the SAS could do 4 minute miles in full pack non-stop for an hour!

Im2Lazy

Hi Roper,

The comment you made about "A lot of whats spouted about these guys is pure rubbish" reffering to Military systems. That's a little bit of an understatement some of it is absolute s**t !

But you have to admit a guy running a mile with a full pack in 4 minutes is a little more beleivable than most of the ridiculous stories from Trad MA about the moves coming from Mythical fights between Cranes & Tigers !!!!

I remember reading that you had a TKD club in Glasnevin in a previous post, where exactly, I wouldn't mind coming down and opening my mind to the alternatives .

Roper

Just coming back to something from earlier.
"E.G You're a TKD instructor if you got in to a fight with someone on the street he might gets a lucky punch in b4 you have a chance to do anything and you get knocked out and he starts kicking you to death on the side of the road. All your confidence in you practiced MA isn't going to make u any less unconcious or any less dead at the end of it all."
Your point from the above is true. Nobody has the answers. But at least I'm enjoying the training and the good positive vibes from that rather than constantly worrying about where the next attack is coming from.

"But you have to admit a guy running a mile with a full pack in 4 minutes is a little more beleivable than most of the ridiculous stories from Trad MA about the moves coming from Mythical fights between Cranes & Tigers !!!! "

No argument there. But its still ridiculous!

We're in the scout hall on Ballygall Road East.
Closed at the moment for Christmas, but back up and running in the New Year. Tuesdays and Saturdays if you're interested. Best thing to do is give me a buzz. 085-8320174. All are welcome!

dent

Glad you guys "Coupe" and "Im2Lazy" found a MA you like and feel will benefit you. Just a quick note though.

You may know how to do the techniques you learned in Krav Maga in a controlled enviroment but without regular drilling and even basic sparring you will find them useless in an actual assault.

You won't have time to think about what you want to do so you have to hope you can pull of these techniques from instinct.

Hope that makes sense.

Im2Lazy

I do see where you're coming from and I personally agree that regular drilling is very helpful so I'm going to keep it but Krav Maga was designed with that in mind as there was time to retrain people,

There is an Advanced class for people who have completed the course which I am going to be doing next year.

As for the sparing there isn't that in the traditional sense as in 2 fighters practice til someone wins but there is drills where you are attacked in different situations and have to respond with the correct amount of force to stop the attacker.

Also there is one drill in particluar more in the Advance class where you fight "The Bullet Man" basically an attacker in pads who doesn't stop til you put him down for good, so you do get to experience fighting an actual person it's not just pads.

I do think that sparring is very useful to gain a better understanding of your opponents movements etc. but it's not very pratical in the traditional way with Krav Maga cos we're aiming for the area's most Trad MA either don't allow you to aim for or suggest as a last resort (Groin/Throat/Eyes). There our first target so people would get to badly hurt .

An ideas how to do it let me know, thanks.

Dyr

protective goggles and a groin guard?

dabhal

Coupe wrote:

By the way Dabhal, I see on another thread you are looking for a way to get out of a headlock. That's covered by class 2.....

I think you may have oversimplified that suitation, I hope that you are not relying on a single set technique to get out of any headlock?

On a side bar to this whats the legality of breaking someone up in a self defence suitation? KM seems to err on the extreme violence side of things(please no replies about weither or not that s the best thing to do)
Does KM give you any idea of appropriate force in the class? or is it all smash em up and run?
Does anyone know the legalities of defending yourself?(facts only plz)

dent

Im2Lazy wrote:

I do see where you're coming from and I personally agree that regular drilling is very helpful so I'm going to keep it but Krav Maga was designed with that in mind as there was time to retrain people,

Good to hear.

Im2Lazy wrote:

cos we're aiming for the area's most Trad MA either don't allow you to aim for or suggest as a last resort (Groin/Throat/Eyes).

I'm pretty sure you haven't practiced every martial art out there or trained under every instructor so I wouldn't make statement like that
I think the word traditional means many things to many different people.

Im2Lazy wrote:

An ideas how to do it let me know, thanks.

I practice Jujutsu which covers strikes to (Groin/Throat/Eyes) if its the best option (Perhaps a simple knee to the head will suffice). I understand its hard to practice these kinds of strikes in a sparring situation for the obvious reasons. Doesn't stop you striking to the head, kneeing to the ribs and sweeping legs. If you practice these you will find it easier to strike the (Groin/Throat/Eyes). You should also practice your clinch and ground work too.

Im2Lazy

On the course Patrick does go over when it's appropiate to use certain techniques it's not just smash and run, simply it's enough force that's is required in order to escape safely.

For example if an attacker is on the ground I assume like most other MA's you'd try to able stomp on their ankle (or similar) rather than their head, we're all not out to hurt anyone only survive.

I do like your side question though, very interesting I'd like to see the replys to that one.

As far as I know it's not self defence if the person attacking you doesn't have the abilty to protect themselves i.e they are weaker a child, elderly or imfirmed person if they hit you and you kick the crap out of them you're going to jail.
But the same is true of a health attacker on the street if he attacks you and you get into a confrontation it's self defence up to the point where he can no longer protect himself (if he's on the ground or unconcious and you keep attacking)
Take the above for example if the police come along your not the victim if he's on the ground getting his head kicked in.

Please yet me know if I'm completely wrong in my interpretation.

Thanks

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Si vis pacem para bellum

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TwoKingMick

For example if an attacker is on the ground I assume like most other MA's you'd try to able stomp on their ankle (or similar) rather than their head, we're all not out to hurt anyone only survive

Sure

Im2Lazy

Thanks for the ideas DENT, I do think you're right and that the sparing would help but unfortunately it's not up to me how Krav Maga is taught.

You might be able to help me with something else is it BJJ you do, if so there anywhere on the northside of Dublin I can do it ? I want to get a better understanding of locks, clinches and do some sparing.

Thanks

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Si vis pacem para bellum

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dent

Im2Lazy wrote:

Thanks for the ideas DENT, I do think you're right and that the sparing would help but unfortunately it's not up to me how Krav Maga is taught.

You might be able to help me with something else is it BJJ you do, if so there anywhere on the northside of Dublin I can do it ? I want to get a better understanding of locks, clinches and do some sparing.

Thanks

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Si vis pacem para bellum

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No problem. Its "Traditonal" Jujutsu and its in Raheny village. http://www.jujutsu.8m.com/index.html has more details. I personnly hate the website but it has all the contact details in its side menu.

dabhal

Im2Lazy wrote:

On the course Patrick does go over when it's appropiate to use certain techniques it's not just smash and run, simply it's enough force that's is required in order to escape safely.

aaahhhh I can breath a little easier now.
Thanks for clearing that up, previous posts where making KM look a bit over the top.

"it's enough force required in order to escape safely."
That should be the self defence mantra

Dabhal

Musashi

Also there is one drill in particluar more in the Advance class where you fight "The Bullet Man" basically an attacker in pads who doesn't stop til you put him down for good

And does Mr. Comiskey credit Peyton Quinn and his RMCAT Training with the idea and development of the "BulletMan"? Has he done the RMCAT Instructors course and been certified to train others with this equipment? Has he trained with the FIST suit or Blauers High Gear suits? Even the lowly "Red Man" provides similar training with reduced mobility! How do we know the scenarios worked in these suits are in any way realistic?
For example,check the ground fight on his own site.What if the girl had just reared up and bitten into his cheek or Trap. muscle? What was he doing mounted anyway? If this was a rape attempt, he needs to get between her legs,or in his position to knock her out.Controlling one hand in each of his, if he tries to strike she can use the hand released to attack his eyes.Does he tell her to do this? What use is "being a champion" and "making a snow angel" as a response to a rape attempt? He claims to use your "natural response" to defend yourself.I'm hoping that girls natural response would be to scrape that guys eyes out of his skull and bite his lips off if he gets close enough!

As far as I know it's not self defence if the person attacking you doesn't have the abilty to protect themselves i.e they are weaker a child, elderly or imfirmed person if they hit you and you kick the crap out of them you're going to jail.

Are you often attacked by children and the old and infirm?

"it's enough force required in order to escape safely."

And if I go to maximum force right out the gate and I escape safely, does that make it ok? Or is it the minimum of force required to get away? I'm just putting this up for debate as my mind is already made up,but if you do not decide now what you are prepared to do,in the middle of a mugging/Rape is a hell of a place to have to decide.
6P's again.

Colm_OReilly

There is a major difference between having techniques and viable skill. Without training along the lines of increasing limitations with regards movement and space, timing, and active resistance skill simply cannot be developed.

With that in mind eye pokes, groin shots etc can't be trained to be the most useful skills. However a body lock or another form of restraint can be. I'm not saying that eye pokes won't hurt, it's just that you can't train them to the level of useful skill to any dependable degree.

That clip was pretty funny, and the mount escape, laughable.

Peace Out Y'All,
Colm

Dyr

Colm_OReilly wrote:

With that in mind eye pokes, groin shots etc can't be trained to be the most useful skills.
Colm

Doesnt the tail start wagging the dog then to certain degree, If you exclude certain possibilities because they wont fit into a modus operandi?

On the odd occasion the dudes i train with will play (note: play no-ones getting hurt ) in standing grapple range Most of em have little grappling experience but they'll put those kind of shots in. I've been bitten during armbar attempts, poked in the town halls from foiling a takedown, and twatted in the head with a padded stick while taking mount on someone The good thing is that the door swings both ways, people get to see that "street" techniques are not always the magic bullets some people think they are.