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Ryanair - and the lessons for Irish Rail...

2

Comments

  • #32
    dabhal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭dabhal


    Zaph0d wrote:
    Allow Irish Rail to pay their staff and management according to performance and not civil service pay grades.
    Allow Irish Rail to hire and fire like any private company
    Allow Irish Rail to deal with their unions as any private company does.

    I think that goes for all of the public sector


  • #33
    dabhal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 223 ✭✭dabhal


    John R wrote:
    The fact is that queues form because the sheep insist on queing far in advance of the departure time, before the train is ready for boarding, in many cases before the train has even arrived from it's previous service.

    As soon as a few people start queing all the subsequent passengers just line up behind them, soon the whole station is cut in half by a line of people. Once the train starts boarding it doesn't take all that long for the queue to be dealt with and unless the boarding starts late the majority of passengers who arrive within 10-15 minutes of departure have no queues.

    Depending on the distance to the first stop there is not always time for a conductor to check all the tickets, particularly as many people will, if not physically stopped, not bother to buy a ticket before travelling.

    Can you explain why we even need this ticket checker system in Hueston.
    Why don't we just operate a turnstile system or a conductor system.
    On your point about not enough time:
    It is extremely rare for any other station connected to Hueston to check tickets before you board and 99% of the time you will be checked by a conductor on the train.


  • #34
    Bogger77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,857 ✭✭✭Bogger77


    dabhal wrote:
    Can you explain why we even need this ticket checker system in Hueston.
    Why don't we just operate a turnstile system or a conductor system.
    On your point about not enough time:
    It is extremely rare for any other station connected to Hueston to check tickets before you board and 99% of the time you will be checked by a conductor on the train.

    Tickets are checked in Tullamore, Clara, portarlington and portlaoise stations, in my experience at least.

    Turnstyle system would be good. At not just at hueston, can any one explain why IR is allowed to let the massives queues and crushes develope in Tara St, Pearse and Connoly Stations. It's when they check people coming off the Darts?


  • #35
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    John R wrote:
    Exactly how is this anything to do with trade unions? Provide some evidence to back up your opinion.

    The fact is that queues form because the sheep insist on queing far in advance of the departure time, before the train is ready for boarding, in many cases before the train has even arrived from it's previous service.

    As soon as a few people start queing all the subsequent passengers just line up behind them, soon the whole station is cut in half by a line of people.
    Depending on the distance to the first stop there is not always time for a conductor to check all the tickets, particularly as many people will, if not physically stopped, not bother to buy a ticket before travelling.

    It's the jobs-for-life mentality. If you tried to change the job descriptions of the guys who man the ticket gates, or better still, make them redundant, SIPTU would go crazy. They are simply a waste of staff resources - funded by the taxpayer. If we're determined to fund jobs-for-lifers, at least have them doing something useful, not actually making a bad situation worse.

    You can't blame passengers for queueing. Passengers queue because:
    1.) The trains are too crowded and people are afraid they won't get seats
    2.) Irish Rail has created the queues by putting gates on platforms, unheard of in any other European country I've traveled in
    3.) The trains aren't frequent enough - this is why you have a build-up
    4.) The trains aren't punctual, not by a long shot, so the queue for the 5pm train will mingle with the queue for the 6pm service
    5.) I'm sure I've missed a few reasons so people feel free to add...

    The Intercitys from Heuston don't stop till Kildare; many even further. How slow would a ticket inspector be if he couldn't check the entire train during this time? I've seen an entire Dutch train (capacity 1,200) checked within ten minutes by two controllers. And get this: every single person had a ticket!


  • #36
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    2.) Irish Rail has created the queues by putting gates on platforms, unheard of in any other European country I've traveled in

    I have seen this in the UK, actually, which is why we probably have it here.
    And get this: every single person had a ticket!
    The fact that a lot of people in this country do attempt to evade their fares is not necessarily the fault of the train company. It seems to be endemic in the culture - people do try to get away with it. This is why we have ticket checking and personally, while I think it's a hassle, I also think we're collectively responsible for it. Me personally, no...but I recognise this reality.

    I haven't travelled much by train in the Netherlands, so I'm not going to question the ability of a Dutch ticket inspector to check the tickets of 600 people in ten minutes, i.e., one a second.

    I don't like the queuing, but I know why it happens and I know why I've queued over the years. I'm not prepared to trash IE over their need to verify people have valid tickets. I'm also not prepared to say "well if their fares were lower..." because their fares are not the worst I know by a long shot.

    I'm a bit irritated by this impression I am getting from this thread that the staff are deemed somehow responsible for all the ills suffered by IE. The company has suffered from seriously poor management for years, a lack of government vision and the usual hassle of being used as a political football and a reward pot for friends of the government. Yes the attitude of some of the staff leaves a lot to be desired, but, not every single person working on the system is a drain on society.

    And for the record, having worked in semi-states, international administrations, big companies and small companies, I can categorically say that the concept of deadwood staff is not limited to the public sector. It's as common in private companies.

    Information: I spent two months temping for Iarnrod Eireann and am a member of a union.


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  • #37
    John R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,106 ✭✭✭John R


    Metrobest wrote:
    It's the jobs-for-life mentality. If you tried to change the job descriptions of the guys who man the ticket gates, or better still, make them redundant, SIPTU would go crazy. They are simply a waste of staff resources - funded by the taxpayer. If we're determined to fund jobs-for-lifers, at least have them doing something useful, not actually making a bad situation worse.

    Er, I asked for some proof not the usual tabloid style bullsh!t anti-public service soundbytes.

    I seriously doubt removing ticket checking would bother anyone unless people were threatened with the sack, there are lots of other things for the staff to be doing in Heuston.

    Revenue protection is a very important part of running a railway, especially in a country like this where such crime is seen by many as a reasonable action if they can get away with it.
    Metrobest wrote:
    You can't blame passengers for queueing. Passengers queue because:
    1.) The trains are too crowded and people are afraid they won't get seats
    2.) Irish Rail has created the queues by putting gates on platforms, unheard of in any other European country I've traveled in
    3.) The trains aren't frequent enough - this is why you have a build-up
    4.) The trains aren't punctual, not by a long shot, so the queue for the 5pm train will mingle with the queue for the 6pm service
    5.) I'm sure I've missed a few reasons so people feel free to add...

    Plenty of large UK inter-city stations have barriers and ticket checkers, more now than before privatisation, some London Kings Cross for example even have queing lines marked out across the concorse when under BR it was an open station.

    It has everything to do with fare-evasion, it is much harder and more disruptive to extract cash from an unwilling scumbag once they are on the train than it is to make them buy a ticket before they board.

    If you have ever been delayed for over an hour at a rural station while the guards have been called to deal with a fare dodger you might have more appreciacion for the benefit of pre-travel checks.
    Metrobest wrote:
    The Intercitys from Heuston don't stop till Kildare; many even further. How slow would a ticket inspector be if he couldn't check the entire train during this time?

    Well as you point out these peak trains are often overcrowded so it is sometimes all but impossible to walk from one end to the other. Even if that was not the issue the large number who wouldn't bother buying tickets if they could buy them on-board or the 5 minutes a piece argueing the toss with evaders trying to get out of paying penalty fares it could easily take one man (usually the full compliment, after all we wouldn't want to over staff each and every train with jobs-for-life union layabouts now would we?) much longer than the distance to the first stop to get through the whole train. And that is ignoring the other duties a conductor has on board the train.
    Metrobest wrote:
    I've seen an entire Dutch train (capacity 1,200) checked within ten minutes by two controllers. And get this: every single person had a ticket!

    As Calina pointed out 1 ticket checked a second... I would really like to see how that works. Please try not to talk complete crap, I know it is difficult but face it you are fooling no one. Constructive criticism is one thing bitching about everything becase you don't like IE just makes you look like a muppet.


  • #38
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Zaph0d wrote:
    Having Connex run the Luas will improve the operations in Irish Rail as people draw comparisons between the respective ticketing systems.

    .
    that is laughable

    I suggest you look into connex particularly their operations in south east england

    besides there are already people on here complaining about
    the luas ticketing system


  • #39
    maxheadroom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭maxheadroom


    cdebru wrote:
    that is laughable

    I suggest you look into connex particularly their operations in south east england
    And I suggest you look into their operations in Sweden, Finland etc.
    cdebru wrote:
    besides there are already people on here complaining about
    the luas ticketing system
    Which is the responsibility of the RPA, not Connex. Connex merely operate the trams.


  • #40
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    maxheadroom wrote:

    Which is the responsibility of the RPA, not Connex. Connex merely operate the trams.
    well then looking to connex for inspiration on ticketing wont work if they are not responsible for it


  • #41
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    John R wrote:
    As Calina pointed out 1 ticket checked a second... I would really like to see how that works. Please try not to talk complete crap, I know it is difficult but face it you are fooling no one. Constructive criticism is one thing bitching about everything becase you don't like IE just makes you look like a muppet.

    The train was eveningtime and quite empty; obviously on a daytime train there would be a team of six inspectors. This stops the dodgers. I've never seen a train stopped in Holland because of fare-evaders; they are removed from the train at the nearest station and taken to the police.

    You don't need ticket checkers at the platform. It's a waste of staff resouces and causes nasty queues and makes passengers' lives hell. You seem to be an apologist for CIE's mistakes; are they paying you?


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  • #42
    Zaph0d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Zaph0d


    maxheadroom wrote:
    Which is the responsibility of the RPA, not Connex. Connex merely operate the trams.
    I stand corrected.

    The Luas ticketing system is not perfect. The ticket machine screens are shaded/angled badly and obscured by glare from the sky. The user interface could be better designed to deliver tickets faster. There is however no comparison with DART where you have to queue to buy a ticket from a human, queue to get through a ticket checking barrier and queue again to exit the destination station while your ticket is checked by a human once more. There is also no comparison with Dublin Bus where there are no ticket machines, no change on the bus, a massively complex fare system and queues delaying the boarding of every bus at every stop while tickets are paid for or validated.

    Until Luas, many people would have said that a ticketing system that relied solely on on-board random checking could not work in Ireland. I could be wrong but I doubt CIE would have run the ticketing on Luas so well if they had the contract.

    I think Luas has shown them that other approaches to ticketing are possible that do not force delays on passengers and services and I see this as a benefit of competition.


  • #43
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    Zaph0d wrote:
    I stand corrected.

    The Luas ticketing system is not perfect. The ticket machine screens are shaded/angled badly and obscured by glare from the sky. The user interface could be better designed to deliver tickets faster. There is however no comparison with DART where you have to queue to buy a ticket from a human, queue to get through a ticket checking barrier and queue again to exit the destination station while your ticket is checked by a human once more. There is also no comparison with Dublin Bus where there are no ticket machines, no change on the bus, a massively complex fare system and queues delaying the boarding of every bus at every stop while tickets are paid for or validated.

    Until Luas, many people would have said that a ticketing system that relied solely on on-board random checking could not work in Ireland. I could be wrong but I doubt CIE would have run the ticketing on Luas so well if they had the contract.

    I think Luas has shown them that other approaches to ticketing are possible that do not force delays on passengers and services and I see this as a benefit of competition.

    You're right. The LUAS ticketing system is working pretty well. A lesson for anyone who thinks the Irish are dishonest: when a system is worth paying for, people do pay. They designed the trams and stops to deter evaders: I've noticed that it's hard to see out the front of the tram; plus the inspector can hide behind the cylindrical thing that shows when the next tram is due and then leap on to catch evaders - I think that's why they were designed like that!

    But two ticket machines at Heuston? What's that about?


  • #44
    John R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,106 ✭✭✭John R


    Zaph0d wrote:
    I stand corrected.

    The Luas ticketing system is not perfect. The ticket machine screens are shaded/angled badly and obscured by glare from the sky. The user interface could be better designed to deliver tickets faster. There is however no comparison with DART where you have to queue to buy a ticket from a human, queue to get through a ticket checking barrier and queue again to exit the destination station while your ticket is checked by a human once more..

    Most if not all DART stations now have ticket vending machines. queueing to show tickets on exiting is not/should not be necessary, the ticket barriers can process tickets both ways so either they are not being operated properly at the main city centre stations or people are not using them.
    Zaph0d wrote:
    There is also no comparison with Dublin Bus where there are no ticket machines, no change on the bus, a massively complex fare system and queues delaying the boarding of every bus at every stop while tickets are paid for or validated.

    Bus tickets that are at worst the same price and for many people would be significantly cheaper can be bought at any of 100s of newsagents throughout the city, where change is freely available.
    Not giving change on buses is purely a security issue, one that is common to all large city operators where driver attacks/robberies were a problem. I am familiar with many UK farebox operators NONE of which will give change at all.

    The fare system is not massively complex, it is a stage system based on distance travelled, DB tried to reduce the number of increments by combining the lowest two into a single €1 fare a few years ago but the government didn't allow it.

    The only alternative to boarding queues on buses is to re-introduce conductors, if you ask me (and many others connected with the bus industry)
    that would be a very good thing on many levels. It would greatly improve boarding speed, there would be much better revenue control (an end to all the scangers who routinely pay the smallest fare no matter how far they are going), improved security for passengers and staff, an end to smoking/vandalism/general scumbag behaviour, etc. But unless you are willing to fund a doubling of wage costs either through fares or taxes it is a non-starter.
    Zaph0d wrote:
    Until Luas, many people would have said that a ticketing system that relied solely on on-board random checking could not work in Ireland. I could be wrong but I doubt CIE would have run the ticketing on Luas so well if they had the contract.

    It is the only practical option for a tram system, platform barriers don't work as the stops and tram lines are mostly open to the street and on-entry validation is too problematic with multiple doors and no means of physically stopping fare evaders. CIE would have used exactly the same method.


  • #45
    Zaph0d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Zaph0d


    John R wrote:
    Most if not all DART stations now have ticket vending machines. queueing to show tickets on exiting is not/should not be necessary, the ticket barriers can process tickets both ways so either they are not being operated properly at the main city centre stations or people are not using them.
    Fair enough
    Bus tickets that are at worst the same price and for many people would be significantly cheaper can be bought at any of 100s of newsagents throughout the city, where change is freely available.
    Many bus stops are nowhere near a newsagent. I'd like to see ticket machines at every bus stop on frequent service routes. I'd also like the distance between bus stops on frequent service routes lengthened to Luas levels. I've already suggested this in a previous thread. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=192277
    Not giving change on buses is purely a security issue, one that is common to all large city operators where driver attacks/robberies were a problem. I am familiar with many UK farebox operators NONE of which will give change at all.
    I can't disagree, that's why I'd prefer ticket machines.
    The fare system is not massively complex, it is a stage system based on distance travelled, DB tried to reduce the number of increments by combining the lowest two into a single €1 fare a few years ago but the government didn't allow it.
    Maybe I'm thick but I still can't use it after 25 years as a customer. Does anyone reading this board know how to use the stage system to calculate their fare on a given route in advance of being told by the driver or another passenger? London has the best and simplest fare system, £1 for every journey.
    The only alternative to boarding queues on buses is to re-introduce conductors, if you ask me (and many others connected with the bus industry)
    that would be a very good thing on many levels. It would greatly improve boarding speed, there would be much better revenue control (an end to all the scangers who routinely pay the smallest fare no matter how far they are going), improved security for passengers and staff, an end to smoking/vandalism/general scumbag behaviour, etc. But unless you are willing to fund a doubling of wage costs either through fares or taxes it is a non-starter.
    Luas doesn't have 1 conductor per tram, but still manages to police the behaviour and ticket checking on board fairly well. My memory of bus conductors when I was a kid in Dublin was that they had plenty of time on their hands to chat to us, signal to the driver when there was a good looking girl on the road etc etc. I remember Charlie on the 86, nice guy, never busy. So yes, I'd say bring back conductors but less than one per bus and only on frequent service routes. On a lot of routes and late at night I'd say DB loses money because people don't feel safe travelling without a conductor.
    It is the only practical option for a tram system, platform barriers don't work as the stops and tram lines are mostly open to the street and on-entry validation is too problematic with multiple doors and no means of physically stopping fare evaders. CIE would have used exactly the same method.
    Point taken


  • #46
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    jlang wrote:
    Also would mean that you could get almost free tickets to travel to Clara on Tuesday mornings, but have to pay several times the current price for a Friday evening trip to Cork or Limerick or Belfast or anywhere you might actually want to go, when you atually want to go there.
    Yeah but your train to Belfast would stop in Lisburn.

    MrP


  • #47
    sliabh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭sliabh


    Zaph0d wrote:
    Maybe I'm thick but I still can't use it after 25 years as a customer. Does anyone reading this board know how to use the stage system to calculate their fare on a given route in advance of being told by the driver or another passenger?
    I agree with you on this one. I am in infrequent bus traveller and it's impossible to have the correct fare ready for the trip because I just don't know how much it will cost.
    Zaph0d wrote:
    London has the best and simplest fare system, £1 for every journey.
    All the continental European cities seem to do a pretty good job as well with zone based fare systems. Most of the city is covered by about 2-3 zones (there will be more to go out to the outer suburbs) and your fare is calculated based on the number of zones you travel on (usually irrespective of the type of transport, be it train, metro, bus or tram).

    To the powers that be: When integrated ticketing is introduced can we have that as well as new electronic ticketing systems please?


  • #48
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    I've seen an entire Dutch train (capacity 1,200) checked within ten minutes by two controllers. And get this: every single person had a ticket!

    Metrobest,

    you implied the train was at full capacity. If the train was relatively empty, then of course two people are going to get through it in ten minutes. Strangely enough, my experience with IE is that their in-train ticket inspectors are equally quick. If the train was empty then the comment was completely irrelevant.


  • #49
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    Calina wrote:
    Metrobest,

    you implied the train was at full capacity. If the train was relatively empty, then of course two people are going to get through it in ten minutes. Strangely enough, my experience with IE is that their in-train ticket inspectors are equally quick. If the train was empty then the comment was completely irrelevant.

    Yeah, there was only a few people in my carriage. I was just using it as an example of how inspectors CAN move through a train quickly. And the Dutch trains are mainly double deckers!

    The key is having enough inspectors on-board. Six on a peak time train. That way, every ticket could be checked between Dublin-Kildare. The LUAS and the smoking ban have shown the Irish to be a highly compliant nation; I see no reason why the sign: "you must have a valid ticket before boarding the train" wouldn't work with open platforms and people KNOWING they were going to be checked on-board.


  • #50
    enterprise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 629 ✭✭✭enterprise


    sliabh wrote:
    I agree with you on this one. I am in infrequent bus traveller and it's impossible to have the correct fare ready for the trip because I just don't know how much it will cost.


    Im actually quite surpirsed by this statement and others like it.

    The fare structure on DB is actually quite simple and I have never had any trouble in guessing how much a fare is when Im not quite sure.

    Example fare Milltown to Townsend Street is €1.45.

    Dublin Bus fare structure:

    1-3 stages: €0.85
    4-7 stages: €1.25
    8-13 stages: €1.45
    14-23 stages: €1.65
    Over 24 stages: €1.75


  • #51
    Zaph0d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Zaph0d


    enterprise wrote:
    Example fare Milltown to Townsend Street is €1.25.
    To calculate this fare you need to know not just the fare structure but also the location and numbers for stages on this route. If you don't keep a timetable in your pocket at all times you would need to memorise this table just to know the fare on one route (48A): 
    75 25 Townsend St.  
74 26 Clare St./ Merrion Sq. West 
73 27 Clonmel St./Earlsfort Terrace
72 28 Charlemont St  
71 29 Dartmouth Rd.  
70 30 Ranelagh (Chelmsford Rd.)  
69 31 Sandford Rd.(Marlboro Rd.)  
68 32 Milltown (Ramleh Pk.)  
67  33 Milltown R.C. Church  
66  34 Dundrum Rd. (Bird Ave.)  
65  35 Dundrum Rd. (Highfield Pk./ Columbanus Rd.)  
64  36 Dundrum Rd. (Frankfort Pk.)  
63  37 Dundrum (R. C. Church)  
62  38 Ballinteer Rd. (Wyckham Pk.)  
61  39 Ballinteer Rd. (Ballinteer Pk.)  
60  40 Broadford Rd. (Corner Broadford Rise)  
59  41 Broadford Walk
    You are then meant to subtract 68 or 67 (the citybound stage numbers in Milltown) from 75 (the citybound stage number in Townsend St) to discover the number of stages and then use this to look up the fare based on the table you quoted above. So if you start from Milltown church you are going 8 stages which is
    8-13 stages: €1.45
    and if you start at the Ramleh Park end of Milltown then you are going 7 stages and your fare is
    4-7 stages: €1.25

    This is only going to be useful if you're Rainman.


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  • #52
    enterprise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 629 ✭✭✭enterprise


    Ok - this blows my argument out of the water! I cocked up! I should have said €1.45 from Milltown Church.

    Generally speaking estimating the distance to travel will give you the fare. Also on the 46A route it gives a list of each stop and the fare to it from your location - I am very suprised that this wasn't adopted as standard across the DB network as it is very handy.


  • #53
    Occidental
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,315 ✭✭✭Occidental


    enterprise wrote:
    Generally speaking estimating the distance to travel will give you the fare.

    The people who don't know the fare are generally those who don't travel by bus often, or who are on a route they don't normally use. It's therefore very unlikely that they're going to know (a) the fare bands, or (b) the distance in stages they are travelling.


  • #54
    Calina
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,219 ✭✭✭Calina


    I see no reason why the sign: "you must have a valid ticket before boarding the train" wouldn't work with open platforms and people KNOWING they were going to be checked on-board.

    It's entirely logical...except...it doesn't happen, end of story.

    I can't comment on the Luas. It runs on the south side of the city of Dublin and I very rarely venture down there.

    As for the smoking ban proving that Irish people can be law abiding...that's fine...it's hard to justify breaking a law that was brought in for health grounds. However, a lot of fare evaders see fare evasion as a victimless crime and imagine it doesn't matter and they should be allowed to get away with it. The smoking ban is only one example. A better example would be the sheer and vast number of driving transgressions that can be witnessed on the roads in this country every day.

    My point is this. We currently have a rail system which is dragging itself into modern times at a painful pace. I'd like it if there was none of this queuing at the railway station. However, realistically, the queue formation is not going to go away until there is sufficient capacity available at certain times. Until people can turn up 10 minutes or less early for a train and be sure that they will not have to stand in between carriages they will arrive 25 -45 minutes early and wait in line. The gate ticket check doesn't cause anything like the same hassle if the train is not full.


  • #55
    John R
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,106 ✭✭✭John R


    Zaph0d wrote:
    Many bus stops are nowhere near a newsagent. I'd like to see ticket machines at every bus stop on frequent service routes. I'd also like the distance between bus stops on frequent service routes lengthened to Luas levels.

    To be fair all the bus tickets can be bought in advance and used when needed so you could buy a number of different ones at once and use them when the need arises.

    Ticket machines are a possibility, but there are big problems also. Basically they only work if they are compulsory, if people are still able to pay cash on board a large number will. To make ticket machines compulsory they have to be available everywhere (or at least everywhere within a certain zone as in Central London) which means a lot of machines to install and maintain and alot of pavement space to be acquired.

    I cannot see it being a reasonable prospect for the entire network, there are just too many widely dispersed stopsto be financially viable but it would need to be all or nothing to be workable.

    Then there is the vandalism/robbery problem. Large areas of the city would be out of the question, the machines would need a 24hr police guard to keep them safe.

    I would be interested to know if any city has successfully used an extensive ticket machine system.
    Zaph0d wrote:
    Maybe I'm thick but I still can't use it after 25 years as a customer. Does anyone reading this board know how to use the stage system to calculate their fare on a given route in advance of being told by the driver or another passenger? London has the best and simplest fare system, £1 for every journey.

    If you have the printed timetable it gives the stages, but fair enough it isn't the simplest system available. A zone system is simpler but it is not as fair.

    A flat rate is very simple but if it was to be applied to Dublin what do you suggest? €1? Not without a huge increase in public funding. €2? Not popular with passengers I'm sure.
    Zaph0d wrote:
    Luas doesn't have 1 conductor per tram, but still manages to police the behaviour and ticket checking on board fairly well. My memory of bus conductors when I was a kid in Dublin was that they had plenty of time on their hands to chat to us, signal to the driver when there was a good looking girl on the road etc etc. I remember Charlie on the 86, nice guy, never busy. So yes, I'd say bring back conductors but less than one per bus and only on frequent service routes. On a lot of routes and late at night I'd say DB loses money because people don't feel safe travelling without a conductor.

    LUAS doesn't have any conductors, they are ticket inspectors who are purely there to catch fare evaders, the system requires 100% of passengers to pre-purchase tickets before boarding.

    Unless every bus has a conductor there will be a large amount of uncollected fares.
    To have LUAS style revenue protection there would need to be a way for 100% of bus passengers to be able to pre buy tickets, we are back to ticket machines at every stop.


  • #56
    Metrobest
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Metrobest


    Calina wrote:
    y The smoking ban is only one example. A better example would be the sheer and vast number of driving transgressions that can be witnessed on the roads in this country every day.

    . I'd like it if there was none of this queuing at the railway station. . The gate ticket check doesn't cause anything like the same hassle if the train is not full.

    My experience is that Irish people are just as compliant as any other nationality. Irish cars drive very slowly compared to Germany, for example, where sections of the Autobahns have no speed limits. We are not a nation of scheizers; but the ridiculous ticket gates treat us as though we are.

    And the gates are what cause congestion at the concourses of Heuston and Connolly. The concourse of 14-platform Amsterdam Central station is smaller than Heuston's; yet there is no outrageous overcrowding because people are not forced to queue to get onto the platforms.


  • #57
    Zaph0d
    Closed Accounts Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Zaph0d


    John R wrote:
    Ticket machines are a possibility, but there are big problems also. Basically they only work if they are compulsory, if people are still able to pay cash on board a large number will. To make ticket machines compulsory they have to be available everywhere (or at least everywhere within a certain zone as in Central London) which means a lot of machines to install and maintain and alot of pavement space to be acquired.

    I cannot see it being a reasonable prospect for the entire network, there are just too many widely dispersed stopsto be financially viable but it would need to be all or nothing to be workable.

    Then there is the vandalism/robbery problem. Large areas of the city would be out of the question, the machines would need a 24hr police guard to keep them safe.
    You couldn't have ticket machines on the entire network. I was suggesting replacing the bus ticket system on heavy usage QBCs with the Luas system, including
    • same number of machines per km as on the Luas line
    • increasing the distance between bus stops to 760m (same as Luas stop interval)
    • making prepaid tickets compulsory,
    • no involvement with fares for driver,
    • faster boarding as passengers are not queuing to pay and validate
    • teams of roving ticket checkers as on Luas
    • simpler zone-based fares
    Concerns about viability, vandalism and theft do not arise as the system is already working and tested in tough areas of the South city on the way to Tallaght and is not disabled by these factors.
    A flat rate is very simple but if it was to be applied to Dublin what do you suggest? €1? Not without a huge increase in public funding. €2? Not popular with passengers I'm sure.
    I'd suggest €1 paid for by a decrease in road building and an increase in passenger numbers.


  • #58
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Metrobest wrote:
    My experience is that Irish people are just as compliant as any other nationality. Irish cars drive very slowly compared to Germany, for example, where sections of the Autobahns have no speed limits. We are not a nation of scheizers; but the ridiculous ticket gates treat us as though we are.

    And the gates are what cause congestion at the concourses of Heuston and Connolly. The concourse of 14-platform Amsterdam Central station is smaller than Heuston's; yet there is no outrageous overcrowding because people are not forced to queue to get onto the platforms.
    tell you what talk to any bus driver operating in dublin and he will tell you about fare evasion

    places were people dont pay at all
    places were virtually everyone pays the minimum fare no matter how far they are going
    grown men with beards trying to pay the childs fare

    and it is not just restricted to poorer less well off areas it is widespread

    it is also a problem on the dart

    I dont know how it is working out on the luas or wether they check as much out around tallaght for example I know in dublin bus the ticket checkers tend to stick to the more afluent areas less chance of getting the ****e kicked out of you


  • #59
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Zaph0d wrote:
    You couldn't have ticket machines on the entire network. I was suggesting replacing the bus ticket system on heavy usage QBCs with the Luas system, including
    • same number of machines per km as on the Luas line
    • increasing the distance between bus stops to 760m (same as Luas stop interval)
    • making prepaid tickets compulsory,
    • no involvement with fares for driver,
    • faster boarding as passengers are not queuing to pay and validate
    • teams of roving ticket checkers as on Luas
    • simpler zone-based fares
    Concerns about viability, vandalism and theft do not arise as the system is already working and tested in tough areas of the South city on the way to Tallaght and is not disabled by these factors.
    I'd suggest €1 paid for by a decrease in road building and an increase in passenger numbers.

    the luas does not really go into housing estates that is were the problems are

    a lot of heavy usage qbcs start or go through some dodgy
    areas
    27 darndale
    77 jobstown killinarden
    40 finglas west etc no disrespect to the many fine people who live there but they have more than their fare share of scumbags

    also the 760 metres between stops in a housing estate just would not work

    the luas stops at the square can i suggest if it continued on up to were the 77 terminates and followed a similiar route the ticket machines would not last long
    in fact i doubt the trams would last long


  • #60
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,726 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    You could have a drop in fares, because you should have an increase in capacity when you simplify the fare system. Here's why:

    A few percent of DB's capacity is absorbed at the moment by customers purchasing tickets.

    This works as follows: A 40 minute journey with 100 passengers could easily have 10 minutes taken up with ticket-purchasing. If you could reduce that time to 5 minutes, the bus could make the journey 13 percent faster. This would allow the same driver and the same bus to carry 13 percent more passengers. This would result in proportional savings on operating costs and capital.

    Potentially, the saving would be even bigger than this, because even a small increase in speed could mean that the same vehicle could sometimes make a second or third trip during the peak time. (Think about it ... bus leaves terminus at 7.25, arrives at other end at 8.05, makes it back to original terminus at 8.45, going against traffic, and then is able to make another peak-time journey leaving at 8.50. If the same trip took 5 minutes longer, the bus wouldn't get back out until 9.05, after the peak)

    The saving could be reflected in ticket prices.

    To make this work, you would put ticket machines at:

    - terminuses and other very busy stops

    - city centre stops (between Parnell St. Heuston Station and Harcourt St. roughly, say)

    In the city centre area no tickets would be sold on-board.

    You board without the driver's intervention if you had a smartcard ticket or a season ticket. You give the driver your ticket counterfoil if you have a one-shot ticket, or if you need to purchase a ticket.

    There would have to be regular inspections, luas-style.

    As for collecting the fares in 'tough' areas, I would suggest a pragmatic solution. Allow people to get on and off the buses where there is trouble as they please. Don't have the driver bother confronting them. When there is an inspection up the road, make sure the inspection is properly supported. If that means having a squad car between the stops where the inspections are being conducted, well then do it. No system will work in an atmosphere of lawlessness.

    Astute observers of boards.ie will notice that this is close to the exact opposite of a position I took on this topic some months back. I guess the Luas operations seem pretty impressive.


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  • #61
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    antoinolachtnai wrote:
    You could have a drop in fares, because you should have an increase in capacity when you simplify the fare system. Here's why:

    A few percent of DB's capacity is absorbed at the moment by customers purchasing tickets.

    This works as follows: A 40 minute journey with 100 passengers could easily have 10 minutes taken up with ticket-purchasing. If you could reduce that time to 5 minutes, the bus could make the journey 13 percent faster. This would allow the same driver and the same bus to carry 13 percent more passengers. This would result in proportional savings on operating costs and capital.

    Potentially, the saving would be even bigger than this, because even a small increase in speed could mean that the same vehicle could sometimes make a second or third trip during the peak time. (Think about it ... bus leaves terminus at 7.25, arrives at other end at 8.05, makes it back to original terminus at 8.45, going against traffic, and then is able to make another peak-time journey leaving at 8.50. If the same trip took 5 minutes longer, the bus wouldn't get back out until 9.05, after the peak)

    The saving could be reflected in ticket prices.

    To make this work, you would put ticket machines at:

    - terminuses and other very busy stops

    - city centre stops (between Parnell St. Heuston Station and Harcourt St. roughly, say)

    In the city centre area no tickets would be sold on-board.

    You board without the driver's intervention if you had a smartcard ticket or a season ticket. You give the driver your ticket counterfoil if you have a one-shot ticket, or if you need to purchase a ticket.

    There would have to be regular inspections, luas-style.

    As for collecting the fares in 'tough' areas, I would suggest a pragmatic solution. Allow people to get on and off the buses where there is trouble as they please. Don't have the driver bother confronting them. When there is an inspection up the road, make sure the inspection is properly supported. If that means having a squad car between the stops where the inspections are being conducted, well then do it. No system will work in an atmosphere of lawlessness.

    Astute observers of boards.ie will notice that this is close to the exact opposite of a position I took on this topic some months back. I guess the Luas operations seem pretty impressive.


    the problem is that you are simply guessing at the time saved

    the time taken at the stops without ticket machines dublin bus already has a large proportion of people using prepaid tickets especially at peak times

    another way far less high tech is bring back conductors then it applies at all stops not just the ones lucky enough to have a ticket machine
    remove the ticket check from the door give the conductor a small hand held ticket validator
    so no queue of people at the door while some gob****e roots for their ticket or tries to remove the ticket they must have wiped their ar$e with from the ticket machine
    or spends five minutes on hands and knees looking for the 2 cent they dropped
    i know it is not super high tech but it works
    it could be introduced on QBC's even if it was just for the peak periods it should be tried


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