Ryanair - and the lessons for Irish Rail...

Metrobest

If it were any other industry, companies would be straining their necks desperate to learn from Ryanair's success story.

But it would seem Irish Rail has learnt nothing.
-Staff costs are ridiculously high
-Unions are allowed walk all over management
-Punctuality is a pipe-dream
-Poor use is made of available infrastructure
-Customer service barely exists
-Fares are too high and the ticketing structure insane
-Stations are badly managed and overcrowded

Ryanair has a different way of doing things; passengers have voted with their bums. What lessons, if any, can Ryanair teach Irish Rail?

netwhizkid

Originally Posted By Metrobest
What lessons, if any, can Ryanair teach Irish Rail?

None.
Just look at the uk where railway privatisation wrecked the network. Right wing capitalism dosent work and never will. Look at Eircom where is broadband Ireland ?... nowhere thanks to privatisation and right wing policies.

Viva le reveloution !!!,

regards netwhizkid

P11 Comms

Metrobest wrote:

What lessons, if any, can Ryanair teach Irish Rail?

That Skangers can fly.

Metrobest

netwhizkid wrote:

None.
Just look at the uk where railway privatisation wrecked the network. Right wing capitalism dosent work and never will. Look at Eircom where is broadband Ireland ?... nowhere thanks to privatisation and right wing policies.

Viva le reveloution !!!,

regards netwhizkid

Bad management imploded the UK railways; nothing to do with capitalism. And poor business acumen. Just look at the things IE could do to make more money, but doesn't...

In the same way as planes make the money for Ryanair, trains make the LOSS for Iarnroad Eireann. Ryanair's philosophy is to keep the planes in the sky as much as possible: fast turnaround times, low fares to stimulate demand, early morning/late night departures.

Look at Irish Rail. The last trains leaves for Cork at 9pm, Galway and Longford far earlier. Don't you think the trains could run until midnight and lower fares be charged on off-peak services? Imagine if an 11pm train ran from Heuston to Cork at a fare of 8 euros each way. Each carriage would be jammed. Not only would IE make a fortune, pressure would be taken off the other services. What's stopping them doing this? Imagination, I say; or lack of it.

embraer170

Why make rail travel even more complicated and push people to the ever improving bus services, aided by the new roads.

Imagine if an 11pm train ran from Heuston to Cork at a fare of 8 euros each way. Each carriage would be jammed.

I am not at all convinced. You'd get a few people, a full train I doubt.
Ever actually travelled on any of IE's last services in the evening. The last Cork - Dublin (at the ridiculously early time of 7.15pm) is consistently empty and I am not sure a few E reduction would change that.

I am a big believer in the Swiss fare system. Fixed fare calculated per km, buy an annual card, get 50% off all railway services (but there it of course includes buses, trams, boats, mountain railways etc)

John R

Metrobest wrote:

Bad management imploded the UK railways; nothing to do with capitalism. And poor business acumen. Just look at the things IE could do to make more money, but doesn't...

The UK railways were very well managed when they before they were privatised, they were grossly underfunded and just scraping by but the money was wisely spent to keep the whole network going.

Under privatisation they were also well managed, in the sense that all of the companies managed the system so that they creamed as much as they possibly could out of fare money and a massively increased subvention while not bothering to keep the safety and maintenance up to standard. Capitalism and right-wing government neglect had everything to do with the state of the railways.

Metrobest wrote:

In the same way as planes make the money for Ryanair, trains make the LOSS for Iarnroad Eireann. Ryanair's philosophy is to keep the planes in the sky as much as possible: fast turnaround times, low fares to stimulate demand, early morning/late night departures.

Ryanair's only goal is to make a profit. IE are primarily involved in providing public services, many of which are unsuitable for producing a financial return.

Metrobest wrote:

Look at Irish Rail. The last trains leaves for Cork at 9pm, Galway and Longford far earlier. Don't you think the trains could run until midnight and lower fares be charged on off-peak services? Imagine if an 11pm train ran from Heuston to Cork at a fare of 8 euros each way. Each carriage would be jammed. Not only would IE make a fortune, pressure would be taken off the other services. What's stopping them doing this? Imagination, I say; or lack of it.

You seriously think there is a reasonable demand for a train from Dublin that arrives in Cork at after 1.30 am? There is light patronage on the current last services on several lines and the late buses from Dublin to Galway, Waterford and Limerick are also not very busy.

Metrobest

John R wrote:

Ryanair's only goal is to make a profit. IE are primarily involved in providing public services, many of which are unsuitable for producing a financial return..

But I would contend that Ryanair delivers better public service than Iarnroad Eireann. Don't you think it's odd that a Dublin-Cork train ticket can cost twice as much as Dublin-Paris on the plane? There's no reason why IE can't adopt Ryanair's business model. There is huge potential for ancillary revenue which IE fails to exploit. Also huge potential exists to expand existing services and keep each train on the tracks for longer. They don't do it. You can't run from the facts. Customers want cheap fares, flexible ticketing options and frequent services; Irish Rail is failing to deliver.

John R wrote:

ou seriously think there is a reasonable demand for a train from Dublin that arrives in Cork at after 1.30 am? There is light patronage on the current last services on several lines and the late buses from Dublin to Galway, Waterford and Limerick are also not very busy.

Basic economics is that you reduce price to stimulate demand. When price falls below a certain level (8 euros one way to Cork), people who wouldn't have considered traveling at that time suddenly decide they will because they're saving a packet on Irish Rail's outrageous existing fares.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

But I would contend that Ryanair delivers better public service than Iarnroad Eireann. Don't you think it's odd that a Dublin-Cork train ticket can cost twice as much as Dublin-Paris on the plane? There's no reason why IE can't adopt Ryanair's business model. There is huge potential for ancillary revenue which IE fails to exploit. Also huge potential exists to expand existing services and keep each train on the tracks for longer. They don't do it. You can't run from the facts. Customers want cheap fares, flexible ticketing options and frequent services; Irish Rail is failing to deliver.

Twice the price? NO. Not even close, try again.

The other side of the Ryanair model is the negatives that would be VERY unpopular on IE. Compulsory advance booking, a big premium on peak time fares and restrictive terms and conditions.

Metrobest wrote:

Basic economics is that you reduce price to stimulate demand. When price falls below a certain level (8 euros one way to Cork), people who wouldn't have considered traveling at that time suddenly decide they will because they're saving a packet on Irish Rail's outrageous existing fares.

Basic intelligence would tell you that there are not hundreds of people every night that would want to arrive in Cork station at 1.30/2.00am
The current 9pm departure is late enough.

At that price it the train would need to be packed to the brim all the time to make it economic.

Zaph0d

Metrobest wrote:

Ryanair has a different way of doing things; passengers have voted with their bums. What lessons, if any, can Ryanair teach Irish Rail?

Irish Rail is subject to constraints on its behaviour that do not apply to a private company. For historical reasons, the company is highly unionised. Management knows from past experience that if it attempts to face down the unions that the single shareholder may take the side of the workers. It would be great to see Irish Rail changing its business to a low fares / high capacity model and offering more variable pricing with cheap night trains but how can it innovate when the government and unions act only in the short term workers interest rather than the interest of the public? We vote for parties that act in this way so we can only blame ourselves.

Ryanair is a smelly company in many respects. Everything from its idiotically poor PR to it in-house graphic design and advertising, its confrontational and ineffective bullying of politicians, the contempt you receive from the overworked and badly dressed staff and the con artistry they employ to hide the true costs of their fares all leave a bad taste in the mouth. But their efficiency has brought untold benefits to millions of consumers and made Ireland a more competitve country.

Nobody believes that Ryanair could have delivered the public service to Ireland that they have achieved had they been under state ownership.

Redundancies have to be voluntary in a semistate, so the best workers often leave when an attempt is made to make the operation more efficient. A private company would just clear out the dead wood, often to the secret relief of the other workers who had been carrying them. A private company can operate with a high degree of worker-management co-operation with everyone trying to improve service to the customer and constantly changing work practices. Irish Rail knows it has to fight for every change that is used by the unions as an excuse for compensation.

Management of a semi-state is often paid a fraction of the salaries offered in the private sector for a simliar turnover business, as it is politically unacceptable to pay high salaries to state employees. High salaries attract headlines that appeal to the begrudging jealousy of the masses. We'd rather have second rate management of a 900 million euro trunover business than see that fecker become a millionaire.

On the other hand, privatising a monopoly like water or fixed line telecoms is not always a great idea when the result is a company with no incentive to compete. The UK has shown how not to privatise railways but other European countries have managed to create a number of competing train operators sharing the same track.

Having Connex run the Luas will improve the operations in Irish Rail as people draw comparisons between the respective ticketing systems.

If the Irish Rail plan is adopted there will be massive capacity added to many routes and it would be great if Irish Rail had the flexibility to sell this cheaply to the public.

So the lessons are:
Remove Irish Rail from the control of politicians perhaps under the direction of an independent state agency.
Allow Irish Rail to pay their staff and management according to performance and not civil service pay grades.
Allow Irish Rail to hire and fire like any private company
Allow Irish Rail to deal with their unions as any private company does.

A Dub in Glasgo

Metrobest wrote:

Bad management imploded the UK railways; nothing to do with capitalism. And poor business acumen.

Absolute and utter rubbish. The biggest reason (by far) the railway system here fell by the wayside was the way the Tory government in the UK carved up the railways. British Rail was disintegrated into 100 companies all competing for the same staff and trying to make a profit and with commercial contractual relationships with one another. Some of those contracts were horrendous to manage and pin down the responsibility for the railway system.

Sarsfield

Metrobest wrote:

-Customer service barely exists

compared to Ryanair?

Metrobest

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Absolute and utter rubbish. The biggest reason (by far) the railway system here fell by the wayside was the way the Tory government in the UK carved up the railways. British Rail was disintegrated into 100 companies all competing for the same staff and trying to make a profit and with commercial contractual relationships with one another. Some of those contracts were horrendous to manage and pin down the responsibility for the railway system.

I'm not saying privatise Irish Rail. Nor am I saying split it into a thousand sub-divisions. What I'm saying is, lessons can be learnt from the Ryanair model.

Every day, a massive percentage of off-peak trains have tonnes of spare capacity. That capacity goes un-used. If fares were adjusted to account for demand everyone benefits. For example, you want to take a 5pm Dublin-Cork train. Then pay a premium fare. You're going off-peak, say at 9pm? Then it's a tenner.

Borzoi

Metrobest wrote:

If fares were adjusted to account for demand everyone benefits. For example, you want to take a 5pm Dublin-Cork train. Then pay a premium fare. You're going off-peak, say at 9pm? Then it's a tenner.

Ah, but your model is flawed, this peak time premium fare has an upper limit because Rail can be compared to road, particularly the private car and it's costs/convenience. Obviously Ryanair are not competeing with people's abaility to drive to London

sliabh

Borzoi wrote:

Ah, but your model is flawed, this peak time premium fare has an upper limit because Rail can be compared to road, particularly the private car and it's costs/convenience. Obviously Ryanair are not competeing with people's abaility to drive to London

It's more about the filling the cheap seats than the expensive ones though.

It's better to have seats filled at €10 a pop (or lower) than to have them empty.

dmeehan

also, price the first x% really cheap, to grab peoples attention. so when the cheap seats are gone, up the price to the next level. keep doing this until you reach the top price when someone walks up to the counter 10 mins before departure.

jlang

Also would mean that you could get almost free tickets to travel to Clara on Tuesday mornings, but have to pay several times the current price for a Friday evening trip to Cork or Limerick or Belfast or anywhere you might actually want to go, when you atually want to go there.

dmeehan

jlang wrote:

Also would mean that you could get almost free tickets to travel to Clara on Tuesday mornings, but have to pay several times the current price for a Friday evening trip to Cork or Limerick or Belfast or anywhere you might actually want to go, when you atually want to go there.

exactly, it lessens the demand for the crush peak services, and encourages use of currently under utilised services

Zaph0d

Metrobest wrote:

Every day, a massive percentage of off-peak trains have tonnes of spare capacity. That capacity goes un-used. If fares were adjusted to account for demand everyone benefits. For example, you want to take a 5pm Dublin-Cork train. Then pay a premium fare. You're going off-peak, say at 9pm? Then it's a tenner.

This makes sense. Some routes already have cheaper fares if you don't travel on friday or sunday (eg Dublin-Galway).

Irish Rail's primary objective should be to carry as many passengers as possible per year, whereas a private airline wants to maximise profit per year which may not necessarily be achieved by filling planes. It would be good if Irish Rail could buy an off-the-shelf airline ticketing system that allowed for variable pricing and sell e-tickets to be collected at the kiosks in the station. I believe the TGV used an airline system many years ago complete with boarding passes etc.

Metrobest

Exactly. Let's take an example. Say I want to travel next Wednesday on the 11am train to Westport. If I bought that ticket today I'll pay the exact same fare as someone who turns up at Heuston today at 4.59pm to take the 5pm train, which will be packed (gee, I wonder why...!)

I'm not saying peak-time fares should be higher than current levels (they're high enough already!); what I'm saying is that the spare capacity on the off-peak services could be swallowed up by lower fares, stimulating demand and probably even enticing drivers off the dirt-track national roads!

Calina

The SNCF main reservation system is based on an airline system. I don't know if they ever used boarding cards for their TGVs - I somehow doubt it but I'm open to correction on that point. That said, all their tickets, TGV or not TGV are basically boarding pass sized anyway. Most of the train companies I've travelled with on the continent use a similar ticket format altbough I don't know what their ticket sales systems is based on. The SNCF res system is probably way, way too big and powerful for the needs of Irish Rail but there are smaller equivalent systems out there which could be bought and adapted but it needs something like a major mindset change in the way the rail system is operated here. And by that I don't mean that Ryanair is a role model to follow. It's anything but (see below).

The problem with Irish Rail isn't really a problem with Irish Rail as such - it's the whole problem with the idea of public transport in this country full stop. We don't do it well and when we try to fix it we tinker with it, and then wonder why a sticking plaster won't staunch a six foot long bloody gash. What is needed is 1) a realisation that we are getting it wrong and 2) a culture change across the board. This means customers of the various transport companies as well.

Irish Rail is at a significant disadvantage to Ryanair when it comes to certain operating costs - the staff ones I'll deal with in a moment - but firstly, it owns and tries to maintain its own infrastructure. By comparison, Ryanair tries to fleece every single airport operator it has to deal with. Secondly, Ryanair underwrites a considerable amount of its flying costs with things like car hire and hotel booking services. Ryanair made 25m from car hire last year. Remember this when you think how amazingly efficient it is. Thirdly - a lot of the work carried out on behalf of Ryanair is carried out by third party companies. Comparison of staff costs is therefore a pointless exercise.

What I would say is the following: the rail system in Ireland is a legacy system which has suffered from a chronic lack of vision over the past 25 years. Given that we can get some things right (eg getting IT in as the country's main industry, getting the IFSC off the ground), it's a bit of a tragedy. The one thing I will say is that Irish Rail are actually showing some signs of trying to play catch up. I've been travelling with them for well more than 15 years and believe me, the improvements in the last two or three years are more than tangible.

What is needed is a recognition that the public transport/rail system we need is going to cost a lot of money. I mean, a serious amount of money. There are several reasons for this:
1) the track infrastructure is inadequate. Commuter trains share a significant amount of the mainline rail track. This isn't really that good. It slows down the long distance trains and it wouldn't surprise me if it limits the number of commuter trains as well.
2) woeful lack of rolling stock for peak times. Fridays in Heuston Station is a scary place. Sundays coming up from Charleville has traditionally been awful.
3) the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it attitude" is fine for a lot of things. Unfortunately, for rail travel in Ireland, the attitude is more along the lines of sticking your head in the sand.

Some time ago, I was reading up on financing for track improvements in Brittany, western France. Bear with me because there is a point to this: One billion euro was going to be spent on the rail network in Brittany. In Brittany - population about 3 million, main city Rennes. The TGV runs from Paris via Rennes to Brest and Quimper. It is, however, highspeed as far as Le Mans (outside Brittany). As far as I can remember, that one billion was to be spent on making the track super highspeed as far as Rennes (ie, full TGV) and then raising the trackspeeds from Rennes to Quimper and Brest by a lesser extent. I can't remember for sure but something like 45 minutes was going to come off the time it took to get from Paris to Rennes. And for that, between them, the regional authority in Brittany, the SNCF, the national government and the departmental authority of Finistere were going to spend one billion euros.

At the time, Irish Rail had one billion euro over five years to try and sort out the network which was suffering from about 40 years of neglect and abuse.

For some reason, I see a different level of political will there.

What I would like to see at a political level is a recognition that the rail network is inadequate in many ways. What is necessary is going to be highly expensive in the short term but should, if it's done properly (and that's the key point) have medium to long term benefits.

1) Separate the commuter and the mainline tracks: translation we need to build additional track not replacement track.
2) Upgrade the mainline track to handle speeds of 120mph at least. It's almost certainly not economically viable to buy some TGVs to do Dublin Belfast/Dublin Cork or Dublin Galway or Dublin Limerick at the moment. Maybe this is
3) Consider replacement the diesel trains with electric trains.
4) Buy more rolling stock. A lot more rolling stock.
5) Consider local train services not unlike the TER system in France - Germany has an equivalent as well.
6) Integrate the national bus and train system - ie run feeder buses to the trains.
This is a matter of national policy.

As for Irish Rail:
1) Reconsider the fare structure. The 5 day and month returns should be a thing of the past. Implement a basic single fare, double it for a return and if it's booked more than two months in advance, lop a significant amount of money off the fare. For the record, certain long distance train tickets sold online by the SNCF can be issued as PDF files and printed out by their customers with their names printed on them. Consider this as it saves the vast majority of airlines millions every year in getting the customers to print out their own e-tickets. The SNCF ask only that you bring a photo id with you.

Additionally, they colour code trains depending on whether they are running peak periods/middling to busy periods/quiet periods and set the TGV fares accordingly. You might try that too. This should be standard.

2) I'm naively assuming that together with your brethren in CIE/Dublin Bus, you are considering introducing an RFID based commuter card not unlike the ones used in Paris and Lyon. If you're not, now is the time to start looking at it, along with mobile phone based technology.

3) The introduction of ticket machines is a good thing. I'm impressed. I realise it will take some time to roll it out to the whole station network but the sooner it is done the better.

4) Start making some trains reservation only, particularly any long distance train leaving Dublin after 4.30 on a Friday.

5) Lose the idea that standing passengers on long distance trains is acceptable. It is not.

6) Standing passengers are acceptable over short distances. Portlaois to Dublin is not a short distance. If the likely journey exceeds 15 minutes, it is not acceptable.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.

enterprise

IE have a number of different fare strategies for off-peak demand. Example it is cheaper to travel on the 09.10 & 10.55 ex Cork to Heuston than say the main business trains the 07.10 & 08.00.

Likewise it is cheaper to travel from Kerry to Dublin on Tues-Thurs & Sat than Fri, Sun or Mon as the the demand for travel is less.

This fare strategy has worked well over the years and some of the points made above are good ones and good be considered further. According to IE's spokesman Barry Kenny speaking to a Louth local newspaper (can't remember the name) the company are going to be launching a task force next year to examine their fares and make changes where nescessary.

Also I do know it is the wish of the Chief Operations Officer Dick Fearn to launch a "Ryanair" type fare model where for quite trains you pay a considerbly less than the full fare. Just look at the €10 fare promotion carried out this summer - this was testing the water to see how the market responds - and by god it responded!


In conclusion, Metrobest may get his wish sooner than he thinks!

Calina

yes but if I remember rightly that promotion was available from Dublin only. Not fair.

enterprise

True, it was. But it was a little experiment to see what the demand was - and the demand was there.

One little step at a time! Lets walk before we can run!

When the Internet reservation system is fully rolled out over the next few months and the ticket task force reports back - then we see some adventurous ticket pricing stratgies.

IE on-line ticket sales are currently available for the following journeys:
Dublin - Cork CityGold services.

First class on Cork, Tralee, Limerick, Galway and Waterford.

Standard Class on the following trains Friday only:

16.50 Heuston - Galway.
17.00 Heuston - Cork.
17.10 Heuston - Limerick - Ennis.
18.30 Heuston - Tralee.

The link to book your journey is:
http://www.irishrail.ie/your_journey2/timetables.asp

John R

Calina wrote:

yes but if I remember rightly that promotion was available from Dublin only. Not fair.

It's not a matter of fairness. These trains were the ones with spare capacity not the ones travelling to Dublin in the mornings.

The "Ryanair model" is also based on paying VERY high fares for peak travel, if IE followed that path there would be very low fares off-peak and much higher than the current ones for peak travel. You cannot have it one way only, If you want ultra-cheap off peak then the peak fares have to be put up to compensate.

Metrobest

Calina, you've raised some very interesting points there based on your experience of the French system. But I would say that the comparison with Ireland is ill-advised. France is far larger, both in size and in population. I love the French railway system. I use the Thalys to Paris (from Amsterdam) a few times a year. That system is reservations-based (ie. the sooner you book, the lower the fare) and there are special discounts for students, under 26s and SNCF card holders etc. It's always a pleasure.

The only comparable route we have in Ireland is Dublin-Cork or Dublin-Belfast; and in both cases that's a weak comparison.

I think a reservations system for Irish Rail is a step backward. It limits customers' flexibility. It slows down the train-boarding process. It increases staff costs (the Thalys has two staff members per carriage to deal with customers who can't find their seat number)

So the conclusion is: learn from the successes of French Rail comfort, and add in the efficiencies of the Dutch Railways (a better geographical comparison to Ireland)

Here's the way I think the system should work:
-If you know you're going to be travelling in advance (7 days' or 14 days') you get a substantial discount. (None of these tickets should be 'reservation' based except perhaps first class - instead the customer, upon booking, would be issued with a Ryanair-style confirmation number; the ticket would print out of a machine on the platform, or even the train, saving staff costs!
-Turn up 5 minutes before departure without a ticket; pay the highest fare

You mentioned Heuston being manic on Friday evenings. You're right. It's a disgrace. At least half the problem is bad management. Why does Iarnroad Eireann ask people to queue in the station concourse to get onto the platform? It's ridiculous! People should be allowed walk straight onto the train, and if the train hasn't arrived, wait on the platform. This is the norm across Europe. Tickets should be controlled on the train itself; there is no need to check tickets at the platform. It is a complete waste of staff resources, but it just shows you how pervasive an influence the trade unions have been allowed to have on the running of Irish Rail. At every turn they hold up progress and resist any change that would make passengers' lives easier.

Remember before Ryanair came along? People paid outrageous fares to travel Dublin-London with Aer Lingus. They didn't grumble; they accepted it; they knew no better. The same is true of the railways in Ireland. Every miniscule reform is greeted with joy in the media - and some other railway lobby groups whose name I won't mention! But what's needed is root and branch reform, not the party-political tweaking of a Martin Cullen press conference.

Zaph0d

According to Irish Rail's web site:

IrishRail.ie wrote:

Iarnród Éireann are currently working on a full e-commerce system which will include on-line ticket sales, seat reservations and fare enquiries.

I hope they sought opinions from the public as part of the analysis phase for this work. Platform 11 or some focus groups should be used rather than guessing what the public want. I also hope they are going to modify an existing booking engine rather than writing one themselves that then doesn't work, as Aer Lingus chose to do.

sliabh

Zaph0d wrote:

I also hope they are going to modify an existing booking engine rather than writing one themselves that then doesn't work, as Aer Lingus chose to do.

It's probably one for Secret Squirrel to answer but afaik Aer Lingus bought a packaged solution for their e-ticketing setup. They did not develop their own.

Zaph0d

sliabh wrote:

It's probably one for Secret Squirrel to answer but afaik Aer Lingus bought a packaged solution for their e-ticketing setup. They did not develop their own.

I believe they use something from Amadeus now. I'm not sure what they had 3 years ago when their site was impossible to use.

enterprise

Zaph0d wrote:

According to Irish Rail's web site:
I hope they sought opinions from the public as part of the analysis phase for this work. Platform 11 or some focus groups should be used rather than guessing what the public want. I also hope they are going to modify an existing booking engine rather than writing one themselves that then doesn't work, as Aer Lingus chose to do.

The seat reservation system is now going live - see my earlier post for the deatils and the link.

murphaph

I think IBM supply all AerLingus' booking requirements now. This post is pretty good. I think that to say that peak fares have to rise because off peak fares fall is wrong. Bums on seats, cheap fares for booking well ahead and incrementally increasing as departure approaches. Peak fares to remain as they are. Ireland does not have rediculously expensive ticket prices for IC journeys but value for money is another thing........standing to Port Laoise is a joke in this day and age.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

You mentioned Heuston being manic on Friday evenings. You're right. It's a disgrace. At least half the problem is bad management. Why does Iarnroad Eireann ask people to queue in the station concourse to get onto the platform? It's ridiculous! People should be allowed walk straight onto the train, and if the train hasn't arrived, wait on the platform. This is the norm across Europe. Tickets should be controlled on the train itself; there is no need to check tickets at the platform. It is a complete waste of staff resources, but it just shows you how pervasive an influence the trade unions have been allowed to have on the running of Irish Rail. At every turn they hold up progress and resist any change that would make passengers' lives easier.

Could you please back up this bullsh!t with some facts.

Exactly how is this anything to do with trade unions? Provide some evidence to back up your opinion.

The fact is that queues form because the sheep insist on queing far in advance of the departure time, before the train is ready for boarding, in many cases before the train has even arrived from it's previous service.

As soon as a few people start queing all the subsequent passengers just line up behind them, soon the whole station is cut in half by a line of people. Once the train starts boarding it doesn't take all that long for the queue to be dealt with and unless the boarding starts late the majority of passengers who arrive within 10-15 minutes of departure have no queues.

Depending on the distance to the first stop there is not always time for a conductor to check all the tickets, particularly as many people will, if not physically stopped, not bother to buy a ticket before travelling.

dabhal

Zaph0d wrote:

Allow Irish Rail to pay their staff and management according to performance and not civil service pay grades.
Allow Irish Rail to hire and fire like any private company
Allow Irish Rail to deal with their unions as any private company does.

I think that goes for all of the public sector

dabhal

John R wrote:

The fact is that queues form because the sheep insist on queing far in advance of the departure time, before the train is ready for boarding, in many cases before the train has even arrived from it's previous service.

As soon as a few people start queing all the subsequent passengers just line up behind them, soon the whole station is cut in half by a line of people. Once the train starts boarding it doesn't take all that long for the queue to be dealt with and unless the boarding starts late the majority of passengers who arrive within 10-15 minutes of departure have no queues.

Depending on the distance to the first stop there is not always time for a conductor to check all the tickets, particularly as many people will, if not physically stopped, not bother to buy a ticket before travelling.

Can you explain why we even need this ticket checker system in Hueston.
Why don't we just operate a turnstile system or a conductor system.
On your point about not enough time:
It is extremely rare for any other station connected to Hueston to check tickets before you board and 99% of the time you will be checked by a conductor on the train.

Bogger77

dabhal wrote:

Can you explain why we even need this ticket checker system in Hueston.
Why don't we just operate a turnstile system or a conductor system.
On your point about not enough time:
It is extremely rare for any other station connected to Hueston to check tickets before you board and 99% of the time you will be checked by a conductor on the train.

Tickets are checked in Tullamore, Clara, portarlington and portlaoise stations, in my experience at least.

Turnstyle system would be good. At not just at hueston, can any one explain why IR is allowed to let the massives queues and crushes develope in Tara St, Pearse and Connoly Stations. It's when they check people coming off the Darts?

Metrobest

John R wrote:

Exactly how is this anything to do with trade unions? Provide some evidence to back up your opinion.

The fact is that queues form because the sheep insist on queing far in advance of the departure time, before the train is ready for boarding, in many cases before the train has even arrived from it's previous service.

As soon as a few people start queing all the subsequent passengers just line up behind them, soon the whole station is cut in half by a line of people.
Depending on the distance to the first stop there is not always time for a conductor to check all the tickets, particularly as many people will, if not physically stopped, not bother to buy a ticket before travelling.

It's the jobs-for-life mentality. If you tried to change the job descriptions of the guys who man the ticket gates, or better still, make them redundant, SIPTU would go crazy. They are simply a waste of staff resources - funded by the taxpayer. If we're determined to fund jobs-for-lifers, at least have them doing something useful, not actually making a bad situation worse.

You can't blame passengers for queueing. Passengers queue because:
1.) The trains are too crowded and people are afraid they won't get seats
2.) Irish Rail has created the queues by putting gates on platforms, unheard of in any other European country I've traveled in
3.) The trains aren't frequent enough - this is why you have a build-up
4.) The trains aren't punctual, not by a long shot, so the queue for the 5pm train will mingle with the queue for the 6pm service
5.) I'm sure I've missed a few reasons so people feel free to add...

The Intercitys from Heuston don't stop till Kildare; many even further. How slow would a ticket inspector be if he couldn't check the entire train during this time? I've seen an entire Dutch train (capacity 1,200) checked within ten minutes by two controllers. And get this: every single person had a ticket!

Calina

2.) Irish Rail has created the queues by putting gates on platforms, unheard of in any other European country I've traveled in

I have seen this in the UK, actually, which is why we probably have it here.

And get this: every single person had a ticket!

The fact that a lot of people in this country do attempt to evade their fares is not necessarily the fault of the train company. It seems to be endemic in the culture - people do try to get away with it. This is why we have ticket checking and personally, while I think it's a hassle, I also think we're collectively responsible for it. Me personally, no...but I recognise this reality.

I haven't travelled much by train in the Netherlands, so I'm not going to question the ability of a Dutch ticket inspector to check the tickets of 600 people in ten minutes, i.e., one a second.

I don't like the queuing, but I know why it happens and I know why I've queued over the years. I'm not prepared to trash IE over their need to verify people have valid tickets. I'm also not prepared to say "well if their fares were lower..." because their fares are not the worst I know by a long shot.

I'm a bit irritated by this impression I am getting from this thread that the staff are deemed somehow responsible for all the ills suffered by IE. The company has suffered from seriously poor management for years, a lack of government vision and the usual hassle of being used as a political football and a reward pot for friends of the government. Yes the attitude of some of the staff leaves a lot to be desired, but, not every single person working on the system is a drain on society.

And for the record, having worked in semi-states, international administrations, big companies and small companies, I can categorically say that the concept of deadwood staff is not limited to the public sector. It's as common in private companies.

Information: I spent two months temping for Iarnrod Eireann and am a member of a union.

John R

Metrobest wrote:

It's the jobs-for-life mentality. If you tried to change the job descriptions of the guys who man the ticket gates, or better still, make them redundant, SIPTU would go crazy. They are simply a waste of staff resources - funded by the taxpayer. If we're determined to fund jobs-for-lifers, at least have them doing something useful, not actually making a bad situation worse.

Er, I asked for some proof not the usual tabloid style bullsh!t anti-public service soundbytes.

I seriously doubt removing ticket checking would bother anyone unless people were threatened with the sack, there are lots of other things for the staff to be doing in Heuston.

Revenue protection is a very important part of running a railway, especially in a country like this where such crime is seen by many as a reasonable action if they can get away with it.

Metrobest wrote:

You can't blame passengers for queueing. Passengers queue because:
1.) The trains are too crowded and people are afraid they won't get seats
2.) Irish Rail has created the queues by putting gates on platforms, unheard of in any other European country I've traveled in
3.) The trains aren't frequent enough - this is why you have a build-up
4.) The trains aren't punctual, not by a long shot, so the queue for the 5pm train will mingle with the queue for the 6pm service
5.) I'm sure I've missed a few reasons so people feel free to add...

Plenty of large UK inter-city stations have barriers and ticket checkers, more now than before privatisation, some London Kings Cross for example even have queing lines marked out across the concorse when under BR it was an open station.

It has everything to do with fare-evasion, it is much harder and more disruptive to extract cash from an unwilling scumbag once they are on the train than it is to make them buy a ticket before they board.

If you have ever been delayed for over an hour at a rural station while the guards have been called to deal with a fare dodger you might have more appreciacion for the benefit of pre-travel checks.

Metrobest wrote:

The Intercitys from Heuston don't stop till Kildare; many even further. How slow would a ticket inspector be if he couldn't check the entire train during this time?

Well as you point out these peak trains are often overcrowded so it is sometimes all but impossible to walk from one end to the other. Even if that was not the issue the large number who wouldn't bother buying tickets if they could buy them on-board or the 5 minutes a piece argueing the toss with evaders trying to get out of paying penalty fares it could easily take one man (usually the full compliment, after all we wouldn't want to over staff each and every train with jobs-for-life union layabouts now would we?) much longer than the distance to the first stop to get through the whole train. And that is ignoring the other duties a conductor has on board the train.

Metrobest wrote:

I've seen an entire Dutch train (capacity 1,200) checked within ten minutes by two controllers. And get this: every single person had a ticket!

As Calina pointed out 1 ticket checked a second... I would really like to see how that works. Please try not to talk complete crap, I know it is difficult but face it you are fooling no one. Constructive criticism is one thing bitching about everything becase you don't like IE just makes you look like a muppet.

cdebru

Zaph0d wrote:

Having Connex run the Luas will improve the operations in Irish Rail as people draw comparisons between the respective ticketing systems.

.

that is laughable

I suggest you look into connex particularly their operations in south east england

besides there are already people on here complaining about
the luas ticketing system

maxheadroom

cdebru wrote:

that is laughable

I suggest you look into connex particularly their operations in south east england

And I suggest you look into their operations in Sweden, Finland etc.

cdebru wrote:

besides there are already people on here complaining about
the luas ticketing system

Which is the responsibility of the RPA, not Connex. Connex merely operate the trams.

cdebru

maxheadroom wrote:

Which is the responsibility of the RPA, not Connex. Connex merely operate the trams.

well then looking to connex for inspiration on ticketing wont work if they are not responsible for it

Metrobest

John R wrote:

As Calina pointed out 1 ticket checked a second... I would really like to see how that works. Please try not to talk complete crap, I know it is difficult but face it you are fooling no one. Constructive criticism is one thing bitching about everything becase you don't like IE just makes you look like a muppet.

The train was eveningtime and quite empty; obviously on a daytime train there would be a team of six inspectors. This stops the dodgers. I've never seen a train stopped in Holland because of fare-evaders; they are removed from the train at the nearest station and taken to the police.

You don't need ticket checkers at the platform. It's a waste of staff resouces and causes nasty queues and makes passengers' lives hell. You seem to be an apologist for CIE's mistakes; are they paying you?

Zaph0d

maxheadroom wrote:

Which is the responsibility of the RPA, not Connex. Connex merely operate the trams.

I stand corrected.

The Luas ticketing system is not perfect. The ticket machine screens are shaded/angled badly and obscured by glare from the sky. The user interface could be better designed to deliver tickets faster. There is however no comparison with DART where you have to queue to buy a ticket from a human, queue to get through a ticket checking barrier and queue again to exit the destination station while your ticket is checked by a human once more. There is also no comparison with Dublin Bus where there are no ticket machines, no change on the bus, a massively complex fare system and queues delaying the boarding of every bus at every stop while tickets are paid for or validated.

Until Luas, many people would have said that a ticketing system that relied solely on on-board random checking could not work in Ireland. I could be wrong but I doubt CIE would have run the ticketing on Luas so well if they had the contract.

I think Luas has shown them that other approaches to ticketing are possible that do not force delays on passengers and services and I see this as a benefit of competition.

Metrobest

Zaph0d wrote:

I stand corrected.

The Luas ticketing system is not perfect. The ticket machine screens are shaded/angled badly and obscured by glare from the sky. The user interface could be better designed to deliver tickets faster. There is however no comparison with DART where you have to queue to buy a ticket from a human, queue to get through a ticket checking barrier and queue again to exit the destination station while your ticket is checked by a human once more. There is also no comparison with Dublin Bus where there are no ticket machines, no change on the bus, a massively complex fare system and queues delaying the boarding of every bus at every stop while tickets are paid for or validated.

Until Luas, many people would have said that a ticketing system that relied solely on on-board random checking could not work in Ireland. I could be wrong but I doubt CIE would have run the ticketing on Luas so well if they had the contract.

I think Luas has shown them that other approaches to ticketing are possible that do not force delays on passengers and services and I see this as a benefit of competition.

You're right. The LUAS ticketing system is working pretty well. A lesson for anyone who thinks the Irish are dishonest: when a system is worth paying for, people do pay. They designed the trams and stops to deter evaders: I've noticed that it's hard to see out the front of the tram; plus the inspector can hide behind the cylindrical thing that shows when the next tram is due and then leap on to catch evaders - I think that's why they were designed like that!

But two ticket machines at Heuston? What's that about?

John R

Zaph0d wrote:

I stand corrected.

The Luas ticketing system is not perfect. The ticket machine screens are shaded/angled badly and obscured by glare from the sky. The user interface could be better designed to deliver tickets faster. There is however no comparison with DART where you have to queue to buy a ticket from a human, queue to get through a ticket checking barrier and queue again to exit the destination station while your ticket is checked by a human once more..

Most if not all DART stations now have ticket vending machines. queueing to show tickets on exiting is not/should not be necessary, the ticket barriers can process tickets both ways so either they are not being operated properly at the main city centre stations or people are not using them.

Zaph0d wrote:

There is also no comparison with Dublin Bus where there are no ticket machines, no change on the bus, a massively complex fare system and queues delaying the boarding of every bus at every stop while tickets are paid for or validated.

Bus tickets that are at worst the same price and for many people would be significantly cheaper can be bought at any of 100s of newsagents throughout the city, where change is freely available.
Not giving change on buses is purely a security issue, one that is common to all large city operators where driver attacks/robberies were a problem. I am familiar with many UK farebox operators NONE of which will give change at all.

The fare system is not massively complex, it is a stage system based on distance travelled, DB tried to reduce the number of increments by combining the lowest two into a single €1 fare a few years ago but the government didn't allow it.

The only alternative to boarding queues on buses is to re-introduce conductors, if you ask me (and many others connected with the bus industry)
that would be a very good thing on many levels. It would greatly improve boarding speed, there would be much better revenue control (an end to all the scangers who routinely pay the smallest fare no matter how far they are going), improved security for passengers and staff, an end to smoking/vandalism/general scumbag behaviour, etc. But unless you are willing to fund a doubling of wage costs either through fares or taxes it is a non-starter.

Zaph0d wrote:

Until Luas, many people would have said that a ticketing system that relied solely on on-board random checking could not work in Ireland. I could be wrong but I doubt CIE would have run the ticketing on Luas so well if they had the contract.

It is the only practical option for a tram system, platform barriers don't work as the stops and tram lines are mostly open to the street and on-entry validation is too problematic with multiple doors and no means of physically stopping fare evaders. CIE would have used exactly the same method.

Zaph0d

John R wrote:

Most if not all DART stations now have ticket vending machines. queueing to show tickets on exiting is not/should not be necessary, the ticket barriers can process tickets both ways so either they are not being operated properly at the main city centre stations or people are not using them.

Fair enough

Bus tickets that are at worst the same price and for many people would be significantly cheaper can be bought at any of 100s of newsagents throughout the city, where change is freely available.

Many bus stops are nowhere near a newsagent. I'd like to see ticket machines at every bus stop on frequent service routes. I'd also like the distance between bus stops on frequent service routes lengthened to Luas levels. I've already suggested this in a previous thread. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=192277

Not giving change on buses is purely a security issue, one that is common to all large city operators where driver attacks/robberies were a problem. I am familiar with many UK farebox operators NONE of which will give change at all.

I can't disagree, that's why I'd prefer ticket machines.

The fare system is not massively complex, it is a stage system based on distance travelled, DB tried to reduce the number of increments by combining the lowest two into a single €1 fare a few years ago but the government didn't allow it.

Maybe I'm thick but I still can't use it after 25 years as a customer. Does anyone reading this board know how to use the stage system to calculate their fare on a given route in advance of being told by the driver or another passenger? London has the best and simplest fare system, £1 for every journey.

The only alternative to boarding queues on buses is to re-introduce conductors, if you ask me (and many others connected with the bus industry)
that would be a very good thing on many levels. It would greatly improve boarding speed, there would be much better revenue control (an end to all the scangers who routinely pay the smallest fare no matter how far they are going), improved security for passengers and staff, an end to smoking/vandalism/general scumbag behaviour, etc. But unless you are willing to fund a doubling of wage costs either through fares or taxes it is a non-starter.

Luas doesn't have 1 conductor per tram, but still manages to police the behaviour and ticket checking on board fairly well. My memory of bus conductors when I was a kid in Dublin was that they had plenty of time on their hands to chat to us, signal to the driver when there was a good looking girl on the road etc etc. I remember Charlie on the 86, nice guy, never busy. So yes, I'd say bring back conductors but less than one per bus and only on frequent service routes. On a lot of routes and late at night I'd say DB loses money because people don't feel safe travelling without a conductor.

It is the only practical option for a tram system, platform barriers don't work as the stops and tram lines are mostly open to the street and on-entry validation is too problematic with multiple doors and no means of physically stopping fare evaders. CIE would have used exactly the same method.

Point taken

MrPudding

jlang wrote:

Also would mean that you could get almost free tickets to travel to Clara on Tuesday mornings, but have to pay several times the current price for a Friday evening trip to Cork or Limerick or Belfast or anywhere you might actually want to go, when you atually want to go there.

Yeah but your train to Belfast would stop in Lisburn.

MrP

sliabh

Zaph0d wrote:

Maybe I'm thick but I still can't use it after 25 years as a customer. Does anyone reading this board know how to use the stage system to calculate their fare on a given route in advance of being told by the driver or another passenger?

I agree with you on this one. I am in infrequent bus traveller and it's impossible to have the correct fare ready for the trip because I just don't know how much it will cost.

Zaph0d wrote:

London has the best and simplest fare system, £1 for every journey.

All the continental European cities seem to do a pretty good job as well with zone based fare systems. Most of the city is covered by about 2-3 zones (there will be more to go out to the outer suburbs) and your fare is calculated based on the number of zones you travel on (usually irrespective of the type of transport, be it train, metro, bus or tram).

To the powers that be: When integrated ticketing is introduced can we have that as well as new electronic ticketing systems please?

Calina

I've seen an entire Dutch train (capacity 1,200) checked within ten minutes by two controllers. And get this: every single person had a ticket!

Metrobest,

you implied the train was at full capacity. If the train was relatively empty, then of course two people are going to get through it in ten minutes. Strangely enough, my experience with IE is that their in-train ticket inspectors are equally quick. If the train was empty then the comment was completely irrelevant.

Metrobest

Calina wrote:

Metrobest,

you implied the train was at full capacity. If the train was relatively empty, then of course two people are going to get through it in ten minutes. Strangely enough, my experience with IE is that their in-train ticket inspectors are equally quick. If the train was empty then the comment was completely irrelevant.

Yeah, there was only a few people in my carriage. I was just using it as an example of how inspectors CAN move through a train quickly. And the Dutch trains are mainly double deckers!

The key is having enough inspectors on-board. Six on a peak time train. That way, every ticket could be checked between Dublin-Kildare. The LUAS and the smoking ban have shown the Irish to be a highly compliant nation; I see no reason why the sign: "you must have a valid ticket before boarding the train" wouldn't work with open platforms and people KNOWING they were going to be checked on-board.

enterprise

sliabh wrote:

I agree with you on this one. I am in infrequent bus traveller and it's impossible to have the correct fare ready for the trip because I just don't know how much it will cost.

Im actually quite surpirsed by this statement and others like it.

The fare structure on DB is actually quite simple and I have never had any trouble in guessing how much a fare is when Im not quite sure.

Example fare Milltown to Townsend Street is €1.45.

Dublin Bus fare structure:

1-3 stages: €0.85
4-7 stages: €1.25
8-13 stages: €1.45
14-23 stages: €1.65
Over 24 stages: €1.75

Zaph0d

enterprise wrote:

Example fare Milltown to Townsend Street is €1.25.

To calculate this fare you need to know not just the fare structure but also the location and numbers for stages on this route. If you don't keep a timetable in your pocket at all times you would need to memorise this table just to know the fare on one route (48A):

75 25 Townsend St.  
74 26 Clare St./ Merrion Sq. West 
73 27 Clonmel St./Earlsfort Terrace
72 28 Charlemont St  
71 29 Dartmouth Rd.  
70 30 Ranelagh (Chelmsford Rd.)  
69 31 Sandford Rd.(Marlboro Rd.)  
68 32 Milltown (Ramleh Pk.)  
67  33 Milltown R.C. Church  
66  34 Dundrum Rd. (Bird Ave.)  
65  35 Dundrum Rd. (Highfield Pk./ Columbanus Rd.)  
64  36 Dundrum Rd. (Frankfort Pk.)  
63  37 Dundrum (R. C. Church)  
62  38 Ballinteer Rd. (Wyckham Pk.)  
61  39 Ballinteer Rd. (Ballinteer Pk.)  
60  40 Broadford Rd. (Corner Broadford Rise)  
59  41 Broadford Walk

You are then meant to subtract 68 or 67 (the citybound stage numbers in Milltown) from 75 (the citybound stage number in Townsend St) to discover the number of stages and then use this to look up the fare based on the table you quoted above. So if you start from Milltown church you are going 8 stages which is

8-13 stages: €1.45

and if you start at the Ramleh Park end of Milltown then you are going 7 stages and your fare is

4-7 stages: €1.25

This is only going to be useful if you're Rainman.