Banning defaced site posts. Policy change?

deRanged · 23-05-2001 01:04PM #1

As long as it's only posts consisting of lists of defaced websites that are banned then I'm totally in favour.
Defacements per se are not good topics for discussion, the vulnerabilities behind them may well be.
I'm presuming that it will still be possible to say things like, "wow, IIS is getting a hammering this week, I wonder where I might find out if my website is vulnerable to all these hacks/defacements I've been hearing about in the news."

Lord Khan · 23-05-2001 01:36PM

kinda have to agree ... the amount of posts about defaced sites is getting stupid... yeah we know they've been defaced we all look at the site Attrition but as X_Or said they've practially stopped. I'm not that interested in where gets defaced to be honest... oh jeeze another site got defaced lets look at it ... they are never much to look at few lines of text and a shout out.
I do have to agree about Tom's "Stop giving me a shout out" posts, one would have been enough ... and why tell us ... go to #hackers_ireland on d*lnet

that's where all the l33+ are.

I think deleting posts announcing them is probably an ok idea ... but let the discussion about them go on at least.

don't read those q news post at all

.

DeV's got my support on the policy. not that it manners since it's not a democracy anyway hehe.

and it's not exactly script kiddies posting about the defacement either ... afaik with out having to return to the topic list ... there was Tom@the box and gandalf (jeeze who'd even consider him a kid? :biggrin: )

Evil Phil · 23-05-2001 02:15PM

Not really in the security field myself as such, but I do need to know stuff about webservers. So I come here and read. Posting defaced sites though doesn't seem to achieve anything other than a bit of infamy for the idiots. I say ban them.

However, discussions on patching exploits (not the exploits themselves) would be a good idea.

ecksor · 23-05-2001 02:20PM

I don't like the idea of banning anything. Actually, if I'd banned one of the "site defacements" posts it'd probably have looked like I was doing it because he accused me of doing them

The general opinion seems to be a call for more moderation, which I don't have a problem with doing. Opinions?

ecksor · 23-05-2001 02:31PM

Again, this is not a democracy. No guarantee that I'll do what you suggest, but I will listen.

Obviously if DeV wants them banned, they'll be banned.

Lord Khan · 23-05-2001 02:34PM

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by X_OR:
I don't like the idea of banning anything. Actually, if I'd banned one of the "site defacements" posts it'd probably have looked like I was doing it because he accused me of doing them

The general opinion seems to be a call for more moderation, which I don't have a problem with doing. Opinions?</font>

nah moderation here is grand cleanest forum of the lot really always a joy to read no spamming muppets here ... I just think really people should stop posting " ***** site was just hacked/defaced" and possible delete or troll any post that is purly posted for the sake of it. tom in fairness was trying to voice an opinion or defend him self over it ... but saying he thought it was you was a bit overboard, defacing is a bit below even you

. you just like screwing people around that's all

DeVore · 23-05-2001 02:41PM

Discussion is always welcome,
for god's sakes guys I was one of the two people who set up Electronic Frontier Ireland and I'm a card carrying member of Amnesty International, freedom of speech is very important to me.

What I am trying to avoid is the security boards turning into an announcement board for kidiots.

If you recall correctly, I was the one who created the board in the first place and I was pretty sure that we'd be sailing close to the wind on topics discussed.

Thats cool, boards was always a place you could talk about stuff like that. BUT and its a big but, I dont want to provide a platform for announcing *greetz* and parading the latest vandalism.

Discussing holes (provided it isnt a "how to hack this hole" post) is always welcome, without discussion we wont know how to fix them or what patch to apply.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I'm presuming that it will still be possible to say things like, "wow, IIS is getting a hammering this week, I wonder where I might find out if my website is vulnerable to all these hacks/defacements I've been hearing about in the news."</font>

Thats a very good definition of what this board is about deRanged.

DeVore.

jd · 23-05-2001 02:53PM

defaced sites are boring at this stage.
If someone is really interested in displaying them to the world let them set up their own "l33t" :-) web site

logic1 · 23-05-2001 02:57PM

Yeah I'd agree on a ban on posts simply stating hacked sites or linking to hacked sites.
If anyone wants a listing I believe Bedlams site is usually about the most up to date list of cracked irish sites and mirrors of the crack itself.

This security board wasn't implemented as a broadcast vehicle for the infamy of idiots.

I also believe that this security forum hasn't quite taken off yet because there is so much discussion about what should and shouldn't be discussed here. I believe this is deterring people from posting as they may think it isn't a suitable topic etc..

Maybe a set of guidelines detailing what the purpose of this forum was envisioned to be at it's time of creation may show people the guidelines in which to follow and what is and isn't considered suitable.

IMO anything security related which provides a certain amount of useful information on a given topic that serves to educate is more than acceptable.

These "i h4xx0r3d www.spunkmunkey.net posts are neither informative or interesting.

.logic.

ecksor · 23-05-2001 03:03PM

Logic, we don't give a damn that you cracked spunkmonkey.net, please take your script kiddie nonsense elsewhere.

logic1 · 23-05-2001 03:06PM

I find the term script kiddie offensive and am on the way to humaities as I type. I'd rather be called "Neuroly challenged yet compiler savvy"

.logic.

fisty · 23-05-2001 03:08PM

spunkmunkey.net hacked?
nooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!

Cake Fiend · 23-05-2001 03:25PM

wh33t, free passwords.

DeVore · 23-05-2001 03:53PM

wow, that was one of the longest On Topic posts I've seen on boards

Ok, back to topic now.

DeV.

(pity about spunkmunkey.net though...)

Talliesin · 23-05-2001 05:49PM

There is no point in defacement notices:

1. They don't prove anything; a defaced site could be the most secure site in the world apart from one hole that a kidiot tool found. A site that was never defaced may be wide open.
2. They don't add to our knowledge of security.
3. They don't create an interest in security, or to the extent that they do they create much more clueless hype and Info-Sec could do with less.

If a big name gets defaced, or someone we know (like here for instance) then there's understandably some interest.
If a rash of defacements are known to be linked to a particular hole then it could actually be useful.

For the most part it's just crap.

Being good at computer/information security is the geek equivalent at being "hard". Posting umpteen defacement notices with no useful information is the geek equivalent at acting hard when you're not, it's nothing but macho posturing crap.

It's no different than people who mail everyone with pointless warnings about virii that are no different than the other virii we already know about (every ****ing time I get 0 virii and 10+ warnings in my mail, never mind the Spamming of boards and newsgroups).

Ban them.

The "freedom of speech" aspect isn't an issue, it's not like we're banning them anywhere on the entire Internet.

DeVore · 24-05-2001 12:06AM

I'm considering and discussing the option of removing posts which are vehicles to announce web-defacements on these boards.

Thats NOT what this board was created for, it was created to discuss security in a positive and constructive manner.

In keeping with our usual policy changes I'm opening this up to the community for discussion. Its not a vote, this isnt a democracy, but its a chance to voice opinions and put forward arguments for and against allowing such posts.

I want to be clear what we are discussing here. I'm proposing banning posts which consist solely or primarily of announcements of lists of defaced sites as we have seen in the past week.

I'll post my views on it below as I dont want to mix my opinion with the suggested policy change.

DeVore.

fisty · 24-05-2001 12:16AM

I agree completely,
Let the script kiddies set up their own boards if they want to show people how 3|337 they are.
I have absolutely no problem with that policy change.

p.s. lol?

fisty · 24-05-2001 12:17AM

er devore, since your here - how do i change my face beside my name - crazy homer gets old, quick.

root · 24-05-2001 12:20AM

I realise this isn't a democracy but here are a few points I would like to make.

I would be not in favour of banning defaced website messages.

This is one of the few sites related to Irish security that is frequently updated.I mean the electronicnews.net security section is so slow to update that their last defacment news was May 5th.Also Hackwatch seems to be quite slow to update.

I feel that it is in the publics interest to have a free flowing discussion on such items, and the best place for that is boards.ie which has continual input from the community.

Lenny · 24-05-2001 12:24AM

Fisty, if you look just right above devore's post
you will see this

profile | register | preferences | faq | search

Click on the profile, and type in your username and pssword, then you will see your profile and to change you icon, it will be the first option at the top.

Pablo · 24-05-2001 12:34AM

'tis the smartest thing to do .

you have my support DeVore

Hobbes · 24-05-2001 12:36AM

Got my vote Devore. Poor kiddies have no score board since attrition.org shut it down.

DeVore · 24-05-2001 12:38AM

Root, you havent actually put forward a reason *why* letting those sites be published is a good thing.

This isnt a democracy but its not a dictatorship either. This policy is up for discussion and argument can sway the decision on it.

Right now my thinking is that we are the stage on which these defacers announce their vandalism.

I notice that Attrition.org is to cease mirroring defacements now, I can imagine for the same reason.

Are we actually doing any good proclaiming these defacements to the world or are we just jerking the kidiots off.

I mean, is this really newsworthy?

DeVore.

Hobbes · 24-05-2001 12:50AM

I don't know devore I think I've changed my mind. I mean you have any idea how vital it was to my life to know that Portlaoise credit unions website was hacked!

ecksor · 24-05-2001 12:52AM

Attrition stopped mirroring defaced sites because the workload got too much and was no longer "just a hobby".

ToM's recent "stop giving me shoutz to _all_ of these defacements, <insert list here>" type threads are a bit off putting.

Personally, I think that any sort of ban on discussion is a bad thing. Highlighting defacements is good and bad, good from the point of view of possibly raising awareness of a need for security amongst people, and bad because it gives retarded h4x0r brats a chance to spout and gives them the attention the desperately crave.

Personally, I don't care enough about their ego trips, and I don't think that stopping them from advertising here will stop defacements from happening. Having said that, pointless threads will be locked and/or moved to trolls.

meglome · 24-05-2001 01:59PM

I think it's most likely that the defacements have got worse since our script kiddie friends have got a forum to boast about it. But whether this means we should stop them is another thing. The reality is that these sites are vulnerable to attack and may contain confidential information about all of us. I personally don't want my Credit Card details available to the world, so maybe these defacements will have a positive affect on admins securing web servers in Ireland properly. It does seem at the moment that, on the whole, security is very poor. Our own website hosted by UTV Internet was defaced www.doesnotcompute.ie/misc/defaced.htm
But our own internal systems are kept very secure as we make a conscious effort to ensure this.

Don't shoot the messenger, fix the problem.

www.doesnotcompute.ie
www.gamire.com

amp · 24-05-2001 06:55PM

Actually I'd class the boards as a benevolent dictatorship, something like China only with a better human rights record

I strongly disagree with the proposed policy change because it's essentially censorship for imho are the wrong reasons.

Yes some of this script kiddies might well try and use Security as a "look at what me and |33t mates did" kinda place. So, are we going to just pretend that sites don't get hacked?

Would the Evening Herald decide not to publish stories on factory break-in's even if it was the criminals who tipped them off?

Removing posts linking to defaced/hacked sites is the equivilant of sticking our heads in the sand.

Besides if the skiddies come here to boast then isn't that going to make it easier to catch the morons?

Lunacy Abounds! GLminesweeper RO><ORS!
art is everything and of course nothing and possibly also a sausage

[This message has been edited by amp (edited 24-05-2001).]

Lord Khan · 25-05-2001 12:55AM

Don't think freedom of speech is much of an issue. Not sure how the admins look at it.

The Irish constitution may guarantees freedom of speech, this is not a public place or public forum. Ok, just to clarify that, I treat the aspect of having to register as being an invitation to join as such and the fact that you have to register making it private not public. The Guys owns all these pages and space is therefore allowed to censor or delete messages or words or BAN users as it pleases. And therefore, althogh the incidental words that they deem may be be offensive are censored, purposeful attempts to circumvent the censoring may result in being banned. Any information contained in any pages, generated or static is the property of Site owners.

not everybody who reads this forum will get the virii warning sent to them for various reason ( not subbed to the lists or what not , I don't sub to any virii mails I get enough mail already ).

think we have a practical consent towards the removal of simple spam "Defaced threads" by now?

btw dev like the term kidiots... should patent it asap :-)

Good Damit spunkmunkey.net ... isn't anywhere safe now? what's next? *minute silence in honour of spunkmunkey*

Lord Khan · 25-05-2001 03:11PM

I can't under stand why People (while one person) keeps saying that the script kiddies have a forum to post on ... and thinking that they means these boards?

'cause afaik no script kiddies has put his work up here

FreaK_BrutheR · 25-05-2001 03:36PM

I do br quite interested in these posts really. dunno why. maybe cause i'd like to know how exactly its done and stuff. anyway as has frequently been said if you dont have an interest in it dont read the post.

_ _ _ _ _________ _ _ _ _
<A HREF="http://homepage.eircom.net/~cullenm" TARGET=_blank>

</A>
http://run.to/pile

nitr0s · 25-05-2001 05:50PM

I don't think there is any point in telling us all about defacements on this forum.There are enough sites already that cover that area, so maybe just asking people not to post would be enough?
Defacing is an easy thing to do these days with so many problems in systems.
I think most administrators are lucky enough to have just the frontpage of the site modified.
For a start, how long would it have taken an administrator to discover an intruder without the page being touched? especially when the administrator doesn't take security that seriously, or does but doesn't have the time to attend to the problems.
Security isn't being taken seriously by the majority of admins in Ireland.Its still poor, and all admins can do is label the people breaking in as "lamers" "script kiddies" or some other lame excuse not to do their job, its pathetic.
After most defacements are done, you can be sure someone will be trying to get back in, from all corners of the world they come with their programs and scripts blazing, and if they do break in, they won't tell you.
In the schools around Ireland, most of the systems are being used for IRC bots and launch pads to other attacks, I've seen them.
The administrators don't seem to give a toss, you tell them "hey, look at this" and then check back later...whats done? **** all.
What needs to be done in order to point out how serious a problem it is? If one system is broken, you can bet in a short while, every single system on that network will be.
Defacing is very harmless compared to what could be achieved.
BTW: This is just what I think, If you don't agree with me, fair enough, i'm not asking you to.But I know at the moment in several major colleges with computer networks, they have been broken into and are currently being used to extend attacks.
I've seen one fellow from bulgaria, root a Linux system remotely because of the default services running and replace ALL the daemons with patched versions, programs like 'ls' 'ps' 'netstat'...etc to hide and cover his tracks.When I mailed the admin about the person there, he ignored me, I checked back a few days later and noticed the intruder had then installed a sniffer, IRC bot and updated the kernel aswell as vulnerable services.
Same thing happening up and down the country and admins just don't seem to care.
Maybe they do, but why aren't they doing somthing about it.

Banning defaced site posts. Policy change?

Comments