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Dublin Bus Massacre, yes "MASSACRE"

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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 756 ✭✭✭Zaph0d


    Not necessarily. The franchise model works quite well in Helsinki, for example.


    This was in the Business Post today. Do you disagree with the Finnish guy in the interview?
    Finnish expert warns on Dublin bus plan

    19/09/04 00:00

    By Gerard Kiely
    A leading transport expert from Finland has warned against the privatisation of the bus market in Dublin, saying a similar move destroyed the market in the Finnish capital, Helsinki.

    Ravi Mehta, operations manager of Finland's largest private bus operator, Koiviston Auto, said: ``From the Helsinki experience, it's a bad idea to liberalise the bus licence system in Dublin.''

    Competition was aimed at increasing the number of bus operators in Helsinki. However, it has reduced the number of companies in the market, according to Mehta.

    ``When we began franchising competition in the mid-1990s we had 20 operators and now we have five, with just one major operator.



    "So you can say we are back to square one,'' he said. ``We are left with large conglomerates that are only interested in dominating the market. They are all in major financial difficulties and are waiting for the other companies to die off.''

    The government plans to franchise a quarter of the bus routes in Dublin to private operators. Mehta warned that the government must be careful not to assume that competition will make the situation any better. ``It's easy to destroy a system, but it's difficult to build it up,'' he said.

    He said Helsinki was an important example of how the franchise system of bus services can go wrong. Large companies, such as Goldman Sachs, Vivendi and the Swedish Jonsson Corporation, all won licences to run bus services in Helsinki in the last three years.

    ``We know the disadvantages of liberalisation of the bus market in Helsinki. Companies are leaving because they can't dominate the market,'' Mehta said.

    Bus licences have been run under a franchise system in Helsinki for the last ten years in the Scandinavian city with companies tendering for three-year licences.

    Mehta said: ``Indigenous bus operators can't bid for these franchises because the price of the tender has been driven down so low there is no room for profit.

    ``If you liberalise the Dublin market, you will get an international conglomerate bidding which doesn't want 20 per cent of the market but 100 per cent and it will replace Irish companies.

    ``It is likely that we will be down to two companies soon in Helsinki and that means they can dictate prices. In one case, a licence has changed hands three times in three years.''

    Liberalisation of the bus market removes the barriers to entry to the sector. However, Mehta said unrestricted competition would adversely affect the quality of service.

    ``Short-term licences have created a huge problem with personnel who have no commitment to the job because they face the risk of losing their job every year,'' he said.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭maxheadroom


    Zaph0d wrote:
    This was in the Business Post today. Do you disagree with the Finnish guy in the interview?

    No - I wasn't aware of that. But, I do know that I've never seen a better run, more punctual public transport network outside of Switzerland.

    I did know about a recent bus driver's strike although I don't know any of the details (my gf doesn't really share my interest in all this, and she's the Finn ;) )


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,106 ✭✭✭John R


    If there were two operators on the same route, the service would improve.

    Care to provide any facts to back that up with?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,106 ✭✭✭John R


    The sooner its privatised the better so that the public will have some choice.


    Choice???
    So if you are waiting at a bus stop you will refuse to get on the first bus because there is one from another company that you like better due in 15 minutes?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,259 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    Competition and privatised routes does not mean two buses racing each other on the same route.

    http://www.publicpurpose.com/t5.htm

    In a proper bus service you don't need to be there 15 mins waiting for a bus. Be there on time with 5 mins and you get the bus thats on schedule. In some countries get there on the minute and you'll get the bus.

    But thats like science fiction in Dublin.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭sliabh


    Business and Finance magazine ran an article a few weeks agon on the different approaches taken in 5 or 6 diffrerent cities around the world to opening up the bus system. Helsinki was one of the ones listed. It was reasonably interesting, but I don't have an online copy. If you see it lying around your office reception it's worth a read.


  • Site Banned Posts: 5,904 ✭✭✭parsi


    [QUOTE=RicardoSmith
    The reason theres so few accidents (if thats true) is that most people know from experience to stay well clear of buses and taxi's as the're very erratic. Most people know not to trust them to signal[/QUOTE]

    Ah come on.. if they were that bad no amount of steering clear of them would help - they'd go right for you ! As for signalling - nobody does that over here it seems... I'm sick to death of guys just grinding to a halt to take turns without so much as a flicker of an indicator, I'm sick of bikes and scooters weaving in and around and mkaing their way to the top of the queue and then taking all day to get started, I'm sick of bikes going from from the gutter and across your lane without any class of a signal..the only hand signal they know is the 2 fingers. And I only have a short commute..

    Go across to London - see how privatisation is working - buses are clogging the streets and some of the drivers (at least the one last Wednesday morning on the 24 from Victoria to Camden) drive madly and would you argue with a guy wearing a studded glove ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,259 ✭✭✭RicardoSmith


    Theres just no enjoyment in driving in Ireland any more. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    The driver was charged today in Dublin District Court with "dangerous driving causing death".

    I take no pleasure in the man's plight but justice must be done and seen to be done for the sake of the family's and friends of the dead injured. He may well be found to be innocent of all wrongdoing. For his sake I sincerely hope so.

    Regardless of guilty or innocence, if the true cause of the accident can be identified perhaps Dublin Bus will be able to prevent further tragedies.

    I believe if you or I driving a private car or a "non Dublin Bus" bus had crashed and kiled 5 people and injured 9 more action would have been taken within 7 days not seven months. There was no justification for the delay. Injustice to one is an affront to us all. We the Irish people deserve better.

    Again my condolences to the berieved families .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,213 ✭✭✭✭therecklessone


    Hagar wrote:

    I take no pleasure in the man's plight but justice must be done and seen to be done for the sake of the family's and friends of the dead injured. He may well be found to be innocent of all wrongdoing. For his sake I sincerely hope so.

    Decent of you to consider the possibility that the driver may be innocent, but fi you had any interest in justice you wouldn't have referred to this incident as a "massacre" in the first place, or said the following:
    Hagar wrote:
    Massacre five human beings, dodge the bullet for six months and walk away free.

    Now, in the interests of justice I suggest people consider this driver innocent unless proven otherwise.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 764 ✭✭✭Tarabuses


    Hagar wrote:
    The driver has never been named by the Gardaí or Dublin Bus, so how can I have caused him an injustice.
    He is anonymous and probably will remain so, now that's an injustice.

    Another of the conclusions to which Hagar jumped. The man's name has been made public today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭secret_squirrel


    Now, in the interests of justice I suggest people consider this driver innocent unless proven otherwise.
    Hear hear. Hagar you made a valid point in a deliberately emotional and inflammatory way that was completely unnecessary to get your point across and then you wonder why people react?
    I suggest you reserve your anger for the organisations responsible for the delay in justice being done, not direct it at a man who for all you know could be innocent. The herald is a bad enough rag without all of us descending to its level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    I note from todays paper that one of the two drivers will be in court today and charged with dangerous driving causing death. As this is now "sub judice" perhaps this thread should be closed while the justice system takes its course.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    Does the idea that anybody would react in an emotional way to the deaths of 5 people surprise you?

    Aertel Today p107 (but may change) - Not the Herald.

    BUS DRIVER MAKES COURT APPEARANCE
    A Dublin Bus driver has appeared at
    Dublin District Court following an
    accident last February on Wellington
    Quay in which five people were killed.

    Kenneth Henvy of Whitethorn Crescent,
    Clondalkin, was charged with dangerous
    driving causing death.

    Det Sgt John Doyle told the court that
    Kenneth Henvy was charged at Pearse
    Street Garda Station at 10.13am this
    morning.

    Judge James Paul McDonnell asked why
    the details for the charge had been
    broadcast on radio this morning and had
    appeared in a national newspaper.


    BTW The judge's anger at the newspaper, I don't know which one, is fully justified. Trial by media is an abomination.

    Since the charges have been brought after investigation by both the Gardai and Dublin Bus it would appear that there is a case to answer. I doubt that the DPP would bring a case to court unless they were satisfied that the person concerned bore a criminal responsibility for his actions and that they could prove such in court.

    If these people did in fact die as a result of a criminal action the word massacre is appropriate.
    If not, it was a tragic accident and I was wrong to use the word.
    At the moment I'm backing the DPP.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,786 ✭✭✭✭Hagar


    BrianD wrote:
    I note from todays paper that one of the two drivers will be in court today and charged with dangerous driving causing death. As this is now "sub judice" perhaps this thread should be closed while the justice system takes its course.


    Very Sensible suggestion. I agree. No more posts from me til its over.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭secret_squirrel


    Good way to close this thread imo


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,904 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Closed, but not becuase of sub judice


This discussion has been closed.
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