Dublin Bus Massacre, yes "MASSACRE"

Hagar

An article appeared in last night's Evening Herald regarding the accident on Wellington Quay. It appears that no action will be taken by the Gardaí against the driver of the bus as it has been 6 months since the accident. To quote the Garda spokesman "If no action has been taken so far it is unlikely to be taken in the future". Dublin Bus will not consider any disciplinary action until the driver has fully recovered from the trauma.

There was uproar because 10 people died on the roads last weekend. Talk about all sorts of commissions and action was bandied about.

Five people died on the path, not on the roads, they were pedestrians simply standing waiting on a bus. They expected to be brought safely to their destination by a skilled, careful professional driver. Instead they were mown down by him.

If I had parked my car illegally on the same spot it would have been clamped and I would have suffered heavy financial loss to atone for my offence. Massacre five human beings, dodge the bullet for six months and walk away free.

Is no action going to be taken? Justice my arse.

If anyone thinks this post is slanderous or libelous. Edit it away, just like Dublin Bus would. Then it never happened, did it?

ChipZilla

Yeah, "justice" sucks balls.

Just like the cops are more interested in protecting the rights of all the little scumbags out there, rather than innocent, everyday people. This driver has as good as got off scot-free. I'm sure the trauma he suffered will be a great consolation to the families of the dead... No criminal charges 'cos he's suffered enough already, and maybe a few weeks token suspension from the bus company.

Great, eh?

Praetorian

What do you think they should do to him?

It was a terrible accident. If the driver is like most other humans, he'll never get over what happened; I certainly wouldn't.

Personally I think he should be banned from driving for life on Irish roads. I don't think a jail sentence could be justified, unless any kind of intent could be proved or was admitted to.

Cuauhtemoc

I'm quite sure if the average Joe ran down and killed 5 people accidentally they would get more than a slap on the wrist.

Does accidental killing not carry some sort of sentence?

RE*AC*TOR

It was an ACCIDENT. I agree, his licence should be permanently revoked, but unless there was criminal intent then jail time would serve no good.
And 5 people killed in an accident does not constitute a massacre, I've never heard such rubbish in my life.

tba

Massacre is a bit of a misplaced description isnt it?

It make it sound like he had intentions to kill those people.

grumpytrousers

Praetorian wrote:

What do you think they should do to him?

It was a terrible accident. If the driver is like most other humans, he'll never get over what happened; I certainly wouldn't.

Personally I think he should be banned from driving for life on Irish roads. I don't think a jail sentence could be justified, unless any kind of intent could be proved or was admitted to.

That's the problem isn't it. What do we/you want from your justice system. Somebody who wilfully goes into a bank, shoots people and runs with the the money obviusly deserves all they get, should they be caught.

somebody who (presumably accidentally) is careless behind the wheel?...dunno - I mean, as Praetorian says, they'll have to live with that the rest of their lives.

Will locking up the driver up with hardened crims really ensure that this won't happen again? I think we can be sure that even without locking up the driver, he'll never do this again.

Will locking him up ensure that this never happens to any other driver? Not really. It'll make other bus drivers more aware in the short term and then, human error might happen again. Or it might not. We can't know.

Can the driver afford to personally pay compensation to the families of all the victims. Probably not.

I'm not standing up for the driver here, y'understand. Those who lost loved ones should expect justice...but my question is 'what form should this justice take?'

ChipZilla

Well Praetorian, I do happen to think he should have got a sentence. He was/is a professional driver who caused five deaths due to his careless driving... He got off lightly IMHO.

sliabh

Hagar, from your description:

Hagar wrote:

They expected to be brought safely to their destination by a skilled, careful professional driver. Instead they were mown down by him.

You are nearly claiming that the driver went out with murder in mind. You can be pretty sure that if you had named the driver, other than a quick post deletion by Victor you would be on the way to the high court.

But as to why not action was taken, were you there, did you take part in the Garda investigation?

If not, then you don't have all the facts (dodgy speculation from the likes of the Herald out to sell more papers is not even close to the truth) and are in no position to make a judgement on whether the Guards have or have not made the right call.

Overblown language like "massacre" is what I would expect from a sensationalist tabloid rather than a sober assessment of the facts. The Guards generally do a good job on this sort of thing. If they feel there is a case to be answered by someone can you tell me how is it in their interest not to push the case forward for the DPP?

Hagar

mas·sa·cre Pronunciation Key (ms-kr) n.
The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly

Entry: massacre
Function: noun
Definition: killing
Synonyms: annihilation, assassination, bloodbath, bloodshed, butchery, carnage, decimation, extermination, genocide, internecion, murder, slaughter, slaying
Source: Roget's New Millennium™ Thesaurus, First Edition (v 1.0.5)
Copyright © 2004 by Lexico Publishing Group, LLC. All rights reserved.



That's a close enough description for my money.
Sensational - no, Accurate - yes.

Hagar

sliabh wrote:

You can be pretty sure that if you had named the driver, other than a quick post deletion by Victor you would be on the way to the high court.

The driver has never been named by the Gardaí or Dublin Bus, so how can I have caused him an injustice.
He is anonymous and probably will remain so, now that's an injustice.

Hagar

sliabh wrote:

You can be pretty sure that if you had named the driver, other than a quick post deletion by Victor you would be on the way to the high court.

I am sure Victor is monitoring this thread and had I overstepped the bounds he would have done his duty.

The driver has never been named by the Gardaí or Dublin Bus, so how can I have caused him an injustice.
He is anonymous and probably will remain so, now that's an injustice.

dudara

mas·sa·cre ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ms-kr)
n.
The act or an instance of killing a large number of humans indiscriminately and cruelly.
The slaughter of a large number of animals.
Informal. A severe defeat, as in a sports event.

Go get a dictionary, not a thesaurus

John R

^ That's one way of getting your 1000th post.

BuffyBot

He was/is a professional driver who caused five deaths due to his careless driving

Was this ever proved? That it was just careless driving?

Victor_Meldrew

As an employee of Dublin Bus, I'm absolutely horrified at some of the posts on this thread. It is an absolute miracle that there haven't been more tragedies, like the Wellington Quay incident. That location was an accident waiting to happen. And let me emphasise the word "ACCIDENT". Unlike the ill-informed morons calling for the driver to be punished, I know the facts behind that crash and can safely say that it could just as easily have happened to me.

SantaHoe

Are the facts of this accident going to be made public? or have they already been?
I haven't heard anything concrete about this since the day it happened... all questions and no answers.
Has anything been put in place to stop this happening again? Something like crash barriers? Although I suspect you'd want something of 'Spire' proportions to stop the weight of a bus.
Anything to make their deaths a little less senseless.

John R

No report has been made public yet, Dublin Bus were ready to publish the report of their findings but were requested by the Gardai and the DPP to hold back until they had finished their enquiries.

Zaph0d

Victor_Meldrew wrote:

As an employee of Dublin Bus, I'm absolutely horrified at some of the posts on this thread. It is an absolute miracle that there haven't been more tragedies, like the Wellington Quay incident. That location was an accident waiting to happen. And let me emphasise the word "ACCIDENT". Unlike the ill-informed morons calling for the driver to be punished, I know the facts behind that crash and can safely say that it could just as easily have happened to me.

As a passenger, I agree with you. Driving a massive vehicle loaded with passengers through a crowded city is an inherently risky activity. A fatal accident can occur without it being the fault of the driver, for instance through mechanical failure or for medical reasons. The risks can never be reduced to zero.

Bus drivers carry the same responsibilities as airline pilots but get a fraction of the pay and a smaller fraction of the respect.

Hagar

Of course it was an accident, I never said it was anything else, but the driver is responsible for his actions wheher intentional or not just as you or I would be. It seems neither he nor anybody else will be brought to task for what happened.

Dublin Bus were holding off their own investigation until a report on a similar accident in the UK was published not at the request of the the Gardaí AFAIK. Although what bearing a report on a different acccident in a different country could have is beyond me. Unless they we waiting to see what arguments the other bus company used to wriggle off the hook. The fact thet the UK accident happened some time after the Irish one only makes the delay more suspicious.

Dudara, I published a clip from both a dictionary and a thesaurus. My post like yours became the victim of yesterday's tech issues.

sliabh

Hagar wrote:

Of course it was an accident, I never said it was anything else, but the driver is responsible for his actions wheher intentional or not just as you or I would be. It seems neither he nor anybody else will be brought to task for what happened.

If you are driving your car and you hit a nail on the road, your tyre bursts, you lose control and you crash into a bus load of kids, was it your fault, should you go to jail for their deaths?

Victor

Hagar wrote:

Dublin Bus were holding off their own investigation until a report on a similar accident in the UK was published

I presume the investigation went ahead immediately deferring only to the Garda. They did however say the report was held (at the request of the DPP).

John R

Hagar wrote:

Dublin Bus were holding off their own investigation until a report on a similar accident in the UK was published not at the request of the the Gardaí AFAIK. Although what bearing a report on a different acccident in a different country could have is beyond me. Unless they we waiting to see what arguments the other bus company used to wriggle off the hook. The fact thet the UK accident happened some time after the Irish one only makes the delay more suspicious.

As I already said Dublin Bus concluded their report some time ago, they did not make it public at the request of the DPP and the Gardai.

If you have any evidence to back up your inferences of a cover up then state them, if not then stop using a tragedy to spread bile.

Hobbes

I think the point is to look for someone to blame. I don't think that should be the driver.

I don't know who the driver is, but I do know if I had ran over that many people by accident, prison would be meaningless to me.

Hagar

There's more to it than simply looking for someone to blame. If we don't know what caused it our chances of preventing a similar occurance are lessened. My point is that the way Dublin Bus are dragging their heels it would make one suspect that there was some flaw in their standard operating practices that allowed the accident.

If the driver "did nothing wrong" and since we don't know who he is, maybe he's "doing nothing wrong" right now on another bus on the streets of Dublin. After all, would his union allow him to be taken off the buses if he "did nothing wrong" ?

LFCFan

I thought we knew what happened? The Bus was left in Gear and when the second driver sat into his seat he pushed on the accelorator and the bus lunged forward before he could get it under control????? Dublin Bus even said it was a common occurance for buses to be left in this state while waiting for the next driver. I think it's obvious how you solve this problem so it doesn't happen again. Switch the bloody bus off when you are getting out. Dublin Bus should take the blame on this one for letting this practice take place.

maxheadroom

Hagar wrote:

If the driver "did nothing wrong" and since we don't know who he is, maybe he's "doing nothing wrong" right now on another bus on the streets of Dublin. After all, would his union allow him to be taken off the buses if he "did nothing wrong" ?

And what if he actually did nothing wrong? Why should he be punished to satisfy your "bloodlust", for want of a better term?

You've said its not about looking for someone to balme, but your posts seem to indicate otherwise.

And, it was widely reported at the time that Dublin Bus were withholding the results of their inquiry after a request from the Gardai and the DPP. I don't see how that implies a cover-up by Dublin Bus.

ishmael whale

Victor_Meldrew wrote:

As an employee of Dublin Bus, I'm absolutely horrified at some of the posts on this thread. It is an absolute miracle that there haven't been more tragedies, like the Wellington Quay incident. That location was an accident waiting to happen. And let me emphasise the word "ACCIDENT". Unlike the ill-informed morons calling for the driver to be punished, I know the facts behind that crash and can safely say that it could just as easily have happened to me.

With respect, an appeal to ‘I have the facts’ without elaboration is of no value. Buses plowing into people for no obvious reason is an extremely rare event, so the ‘facts’ would have to be fairly earth shattering to alter the conclusion that a case needs to be answered. If there is no basis for a prosecution of the driver, or anyone else, there seems no obvious reason to not publish the report.

Hagar

LFCFan wrote:

I thought we knew what happened? The Bus was left in Gear and when the second driver sat into his seat he pushed on the accelorator and the bus lunged forward before he could get it under control?????

I must disagree here. If the bus had a manual gearbox it couldn't be left in gear without someone keeping the clutch pedal depressed. If the bus had an automatic gearbox and was left in drive it would "creep" forward without someone keeping the brake pedal depressed. I'm not a mechanic so I'm open to correction there. Its my understanding that it is an offence under the road traffic acts to leave a mechanically propelled vehicle parked unattended in a public place with its engine running. Common sense really. Surely to do so would at the very least be contributory negligence on the part of the driver.

Did the findings of the unpublished report not highlight this as a potential hazard and if so why is nothing being about it? Buses are still being left at terminii with their engines running. I saw one yesterday in Hawkins Street.

sliabh

The reality is that none of us know for sure what happened and so we are not in a position to make a judgement call. The relevent authorities (Dublin Bus and/or the Guards) need to publish their reports. Until then we are just speculating.

Hagar

I accept that. Although the report has yet to be published, its findings are known, at least in draft form, by Dublin Bus. Surely on that basis we should have seen some safety measures being implemented. There are no obvious changes in work practices.
I think there is an institutionalised mind set of keeping the public un-informed by people who are ultimately answerable to us, as the electorate.