teacher smacking a child!

lisa.c · 09-09-2004 01:00PM

sleepy

my son dosent lie so please dont tell me he does.

and no one has permission to hit my son. i dont care what my son does in school thay have no right to smack him.

also you must be very young to be able to remember what you did as a 2 and a half year old

Stark · 09-09-2004 01:01PM

lisa.c wrote:

i totally believe my son, he still has that innocence that children hold... he could'nt fib or lie to save his life - he dosent know how.

You should remember that as a parent you're blind to these things, rose-tinted glasses and all that. Every child lies, the best liars are the ones who can hold an innocent face while doing it (from way before age 3 a child is learning what gets results and what doesn't get results). I've seen many parents who believe their child is a little angel when everyone else knows what a little monster they are, the child sits before the parent with a sweet little smile on their face playing them for all their worth, whilst sneering at their teacher with that little grin that says "you can only hope for this kind of power". Remember what they are - miniature people.

Not that any of that applies to your child

Just remember to be objective, listen to both sides of the story and give them both equal treatment, don't automatically side with your child because the child may be lying because they're bitter about getting a scolding or whatever or the child may actually have an over-active imagination or mis-read a situation. For example make sure the child knows that "smacking" means actual physical contact and not a scolding, it's entirely possible for a 3-year old to mix words up. The teacher may have given the child a tap on the palm of the hand with a ruler to signify disapproval. Just don't go into the situation all militant screaming "You battered by little precious" as if the child will never walk again as many parents do. Though the fact that you're taking time to think things through shows that you won't be one of them

And finally if you do find out that the teacher did actually smack the child, then you do have a right to go to the gardaí.

Sleepy · 09-09-2004 01:04PM

lisa, how do you know your son doesn't lie? He might just be good at it, or as Stark pointed out, you may just be blind to it.

And I'm 24, but yes I have some memories of being 3 and, for that matter, 2.

Stark · 09-09-2004 01:10PM

also you must be very young to be able to remember what you did as a 2 and a half year old

I remember things I've done as a 1 and a half year old and I'm 22. (My grandparents died before I turned 2 and I can remember time spent with them). Although I don't remember conciously lying at that age. I learnt quickly though. In fact I lied more often than I told the truth. My brother was a skilled manipulator and up until the age of about 12 he lied constanly to my parents, often faking bruises by rubbing skin vigorously and then claiming I battered him in order to fire up a situation. (He nearly got me thrown out of home several times). Needless to say he made my life a misery. It was only when he hit puberty and didn't hold as much control over that "little angel smile and sweet sweet voice" that things got better for me and my parents started to see through his lies. Thank goodness my sister turned out to be the traditionalist tantrum throwing, "I lied about taking that bar of chocolate" child.

bandraoi · 09-09-2004 01:10PM

supposing just for instance your son and another child were standing at the top of a staircase, being carefully supervised etc. and your son and the other kid were just messing around as kids do and your son gave the other kid a playful push as kids playing will do.

In that situation if the supervising teacher gave your child a quick sharp slap and said stop it I would be fully supportive. The child isn't doing anything wrong really, a three year old doesn't know how to distinguish between the fact that playful pushing is ok normally versus playful pushing where there's an obvious danger present but needs to be gotten to stop the behaviour immediatly.

There are hundreds and thousands of such situations.

Talk to the teacher.

Naos · 09-09-2004 01:17PM

I agree with giving a kid a little smack if he misbehaves. I got a little smack if i did something wrong "dont touch that button" type things. So long as it doesnt leave a mark its fine. But i dont agree with hitting a child whose not your own.. So i'd go up to the school and ... above.

Stark · 09-09-2004 01:20PM

Well in that situation the teacher would still not be within their rights to give the child an actual slap. Corporal punishment is illegal after all. The likelihood is the child won't even know why they're getting slapped, they'll assume they were smacked simply for playing rather than being smacked for pushing the child too close to stairs. The teacher needs to be clear on the explaining to the child the danger and choose a punishment that doesn't involve physically hurting the child. Only parents have a right to smack their children and even that could only be a temporary right, with the new laws that are being proposed in England and will no doubt be proposed in Ireland if they're passed in England.

da_deadman · 09-09-2004 01:21PM

None of us here can say whether or not your son does lie Lisa. He may, or he may not. As Stark said, people learn very quickly what works and what doesn't. He may not realise he is lying per se, but may just be trying to get his own way, as people will generally try to do. Or he may be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The only thing to do is to be calm and rational, to go into the teacher, and talk about what happened. Then if you know for sure that she hit your son, then you must officially report it to the school and tell them that you will go to the gardai if it happens again. You must tell the school about it, as they need to know in case she hits someone else's child the next time...

And, Sleepy, no I dont think that it should be against the law for parents to slap their own child if that is the manner of 'discipline' they choose. However, it is a tricky area. As I said before, and think you might agree, a lot of parents dont really work too much on their responsibility to their children. I think if a parent is going to slap a child they have to be very responsible and not just beat a child around the room. It has to be a constructive learning experience and not just an act of aggression. However, I feel that because of the lack of responsibility in a lot of parents, they would not be capable of discipling their child properly with slapping them. Instead it would just be an act of child abuse, not proper rearing.

And Bard is so right, his point has to be repeated, no-one should ever slap anyone else's child. There should never even be the possibility of giving permission to anyone else that they can slap your child. It is the parents responsibility of discipling their child, no-one else's.

Swarfboy · 09-09-2004 01:22PM

Lisa,
Nobody has a right to punish your child and whether a "smacking" actually took place or not you have every right to feel angry, worried etc...
I would advise you to do the best you can as you are his one and only Mammy "you know best" and also ignore the idiots that plague this site..
Everyone is quick to give their own opinions when the only ones that count are yours and the childs father's/

da_deadman · 09-09-2004 01:34PM

Thats right Swarfboy, it is ultimately up to the parents to decide on the best course of action for a child.
But dont forget this, Lisa.c was the one who started this thread asking for our opinions and advice. The 'Mammy' came to us for advice, so why should she then "ignore the idiots that plague this site". In fact, if she follows your advice, she will have to ignore your post. :rolleyes:

I think I'm gonna give you the frowning of a lifetime

Swarfboy · 09-09-2004 01:54PM

Hey now Deadman....what's with the bad rep...if Lisa ignores my post along with everyone else's then I have achieved exactly what I meant in my post.
Even if Lisa did ask for opinions it didn't warrant some of the responses therefore my advise to her was to ignore all and make up her own mind...
I didn't think it was that bad.!

Sleepy · 09-09-2004 02:06PM

The advice I was giving Swarfboy is that she shouldn't natuarally assume that just because her son said the teacher slapped him that it actually happened. It could have been something as innocent as her happening to turn around and him running into her hand.

And I'd worry about anyone using any version of the line "mother knows best". It's one of the very reasons that so much child abuse has gone unreported and the attitude has irrepairably damaged thousands of lives.

da_deadman · 09-09-2004 02:09PM

Lisa wants advice -> goes to boards.ie -> asks question -> gets answers -> gets told to ignore all answers -> Lisa ignores answers -> Lisa is now back to point one of wanting advice

I just think you could give your opinion on the matter, and not start making calls to "ignore the idiots that plague this site". We are all only giving our opinion on the question Lisa asked, and about the resultant discussion. I'm sure Lisa is able to make up her own mind of what to do, but maybe some of the advice here made her think about it more, or reassured her about the right course of action to take.

koneko · 09-09-2004 02:10PM

I'd approach the teacher, and ask her what he's talking about/what happened. Children, while not lying maliciously like adult may do, might have an overactive imagination and things might have happened differently to the way he says.

If it's a situation where she slapped him because she's disciplining him or teaching him a lesson, then I would complain to whoever runs the facility in the very least.

beer enigma · 09-09-2004 02:18PM

lisa.c wrote:

sleepy

my son dosent lie so please dont tell me he does.

and no one has permission to hit my son. i dont care what my son does in school thay have no right to smack him.

I'm fully with you on this one - my eldest chances her arm & tries to fib sometimes, but she's dreadful at it & you'd suss her in an instance - that's the beauty of innocence & long may it continue.

I don't care what the situation is, NO ONE has the right to smack my child. It happened to my 3 yr old in a creche in Cork once & the care assistant involved was removed instantly. I didn't have time to complain, by the time I'd got to the creche, she'd already been given her cards - standard policy in any creche or montessori.

I was never smacked as a child & my kids are not smacked either. Now, maybe I'm blessed with the best children in the world (& I proudly admit to being biased), but if they do wrong, I use the reasoning route & it works fine for me.

lisa.c · 09-09-2004 02:20PM

thanks for all the comments.

i would just like to say i understand where some of you are comming from when ye say that maybe my son is a just looking for reactions etc etc, i assure you all he isnt. he said it in the same tone as he did when he told me how much fun he had. he was'nt looking for anything he said it as if it was normal.
my son is no angel and i smack him and punish him, so im under no illusions that he is an angel.

i just dont want any one other than me and his dad to smack him.

also this is a private playschool run by a women and two helpers.

pickarooney · 09-09-2004 03:35PM

Maybe there was a scrap and two of the kids were giving one another digs? There's no way of sorting that out unless you prove that because you're bigger and stronger you have the authority.

Stark · 09-09-2004 03:39PM

Do talk to the teacher in question. Unless she's a nutcase who likes hitting kids for the fun of it then she probably slapped the child thinking it was okay to do so, and as such probably won't deny it straight out. And like I said in a previous post, she might not have actually smacked him but made a "smacking gesture" like tapping him on the wrist with a finger saying "bold" or something which your son could have interpreted as a smack. Did your son tell you why he was smacked (probably not, as I don't think most kids know why they get smacked, I know I never knew what I was getting smacked for as a kid which is why I'm partially opposed to kids being smacked).

ixoy · 09-09-2004 03:55PM

lisa.c wrote:

well the way i see it is that no one absolutly no one has any authority to smack my son except me and his dad.

True. I saw the movie "Jeux d'enfants" there and there was a gasp of shock when one parent hit his son's friend. I found it off too. It's not their business to physically punish your child. If the child needs to be disciplined there are other means available to them.
Even if your son aggravated them, it's up to them - as the older and more mature person - to treat the situation properly. Deny play, as you say. Hitting another child, knowing the power an adult has, doesn't sit right with me.

i totally believe my son, he still has that innocence that children hold... he could'nt fib or lie to save his life - he dosent know how.

Well here's where we may disagree a little. Dammit I don't have it to hand, but I know I've read/seen studies that prove children, even as young as yours, are more than capable of lying to manipulate a situation to their advantage. Which isn't to say they're being evilly devious, it's just that the concept of lie/truth isn't concrete yet in their minds.

daveg · 10-09-2004 09:15AM

Firstly I'm going to try to help Lisa. Myself and my GF were in nearly the exact same situation as you when my son was 3. He came home from the playschool/Creche and told us that one of the girls had told him he could not sit down and he had to stand in the corner whilst the other kids were read a story. Like yourself we did not know what to do, but we knew we had to do something. We spoke to the manager of the creche and explained, calmly, the situation. We also told her that our son my have been "telling tales" etc. She promised us she would investigate which she did and reported back that the employee in questions didn't refuse my son the chair. We then had a chat with my son and he admitted he was telling tales. This is just a natural learning stage for children. As someone mentioned earlier kids test the boundaries etc. My advice to you Lisa is talk to your child and also talk to the manager. Don't leave the situation until you are fully happy with the outcome. We were happy that the outcome was that my son was telling tales.

However if you still feel that the employee in question did slap your child then I personally would go to fúcking town on them. I would file a complaint with the garda's.

Finally to Sleepy and others saying that slapping a 3 year old child (especially a creche employee or a teacher) is a highly ignorant statement to make. Sleepy when you have kids of your own come back and make a comment. You have no idea of childcare/creche care facilities and the trust one must put in the employees who look after your kids. Tbh your comments are the most ignorant I have read in a very long time on boards and that saying something. If you feel it is ok for a creche care employee to slap your 3 year then you should be reported to social services NOW before you have any kids.

Lisa this is why you should have maybe posted on parenting instead of afterhours. In parenting you would have got a response from like minded parents. Aware of your situation and adequately qualified (ie have kids as well) to give advice. Where as when you post on afterhours you get idiot's like sleepy who think they know everything, but actually know nothing.

daveg · 10-09-2004 09:27AM

Sleepy wrote:

It's attitudes like yours which has the country in such a state with so many kids running riot and behaving like spoilt brats because they have been spoiled: by parents who want to be their best mate instead of being their parents.

What a load of shít. The reason some kids run riot etc etc is because their parents don't give a damn. Parents don't know where there kids are or what they are doing (or more to the point don't care).

However parents who take the time and responsibility to teach their kids right and wrong by sitting down and explaining to the child. By having a relationship with the child of trust. By teaching the child to have respect for other people and other peoples possesions. Where the child knows he/she can talk to their parents and not get a slap across the face. Where the child is given unconditional love and effection. Thats how you raise a child sleepy. Not be explaining the child cannot have sweets in the shop with a slap on the face as opposed to explaining the reasons why.

daveg · 10-09-2004 09:28AM

da_deadman wrote:

Having children, and raising them, is a privelege and a responsibility. As a parent your first duty is to your children and not to yourself (until the child reaches adulthood). There are a lot of parents I know of who do not take this responsibility seriously enough. This is what has children 'running riot and behaving like spoilt brats'. It is not because they have not been slapped but more because their parents are too lazy to work on their responsibility to their children.

Nail, hammer, head.

Sleepy · 10-09-2004 09:58AM

DAVEG - A few questions/points:

1. Does being a parent automatically qualify you to be one? This seems to be your attitude. Look around you ffs, how many parents out there aren't fit to be?

2. Where did I say it was okay for the creche teacher to slap lisa's child? I never did, though I did mention that I would be in favour of corporal punishment once parental consent had been given.

3. No, I'm not a parent. I do however have younger siblings. My sister is a nursery teacher, so yes I've quite a good idea of "childcare/creche care facilities and the trust one must put in the employees who look after your kids." as you put it. I've also read a heap of my sisters old college books (she did early childhood studies in UCC) so yeah, I think my opinions are reasonably well informed on the matter.

4. Where was slapping kids across the face ever discussed? When i say I think it's okay for a parent to slap their child (and would recommend it) I mean a slap across the backside when the child is misbehaving, not punching their lights out. You seem to confuse the two so allow me to clarify: one is an age-old parenting technique, the other child abuse.

And Dave, you should know better than to attack the poster. Attack my points if you disagree with me. You may change my mind that way. Calling me ignorant or an idiot isn't exactly a great way to do that is it?

daveg · 10-09-2004 11:33AM

Sleepy wrote:

1. Does being a parent automatically qualify you to be one? This seems to be your attitude. Look around you ffs, how many parents out there aren't fit to be?

Where did you take this to be my attitude? I totally agree a lot of parents don't deserve kids. I think we actually agree on this point. As someone once said you need a licence to own a dog but any bastard can have a child.

Sleepy wrote:

2. Where did I say it was okay for the creche teacher to slap lisa's child? I never did, though I did mention that I would be in favour of corporal punishment once parental consent had been given.

You wrote:

"This is one law I've never understood. Sure, there was plenty of abuse of corporal punishment but at the same time, as a principle it worked didn't it? Kid acts up, kid gets slapped, kid doesn't do it again. Absolutely no harm in a slap across the arse when a child misbehaves. My parents did it to me and I'll do it to my kids if I ever have any."

I don't recall you mentioning anywhere that your comments were on the condition that "parents consent was given".

Sleepy wrote:

3. No, I'm not a parent. I do however have younger siblings. My sister is a nursery teacher, so yes I've quite a good idea of "childcare/creche care facilities and the trust one must put in the employees who look after your kids." as you put it. I've also read a heap of my sisters old college books (she did early childhood studies in UCC) so yeah, I think my opinions are reasonably well informed on the matter.

Well I do apologise. It appears you have adequete experience in the matter to dish out advice to a worried mother, what with you having younger siblings and a sister who works in childcare. The fact still remains you do not have kids and as such, imo, your opinions are not well informed. If you have a good idea of the trust given from parents to childcare workers then how come you say it's ok for the worker to slap a child. This is totally against childcare rules and philosophy.

Sleepy wrote:

4. Where was slapping kids across the face ever discussed? When i say I think it's okay for a parent to slap their child (and would recommend it) I mean a slap across the backside when the child is misbehaving, not punching their lights out. You seem to confuse the two so allow me to clarify: one is an age-old parenting technique, the other child abuse.

Where did you state the slap would be on the face or the behind? You were the one giving the opinion it is ok to slap a child.

Sleepy wrote:

And Dave, you should know better than to attack the poster. Attack my points if you disagree with me. You may change my mind that way. Calling me ignorant or an idiot isn't exactly a great way to do that is it?

My intention was not to attack you. In fact I apologise if this is the way my post read. However I do think it is ignorant for someone who does not have kids to tell an upset, probably at wits end, experienced parent that it is ok for a child carer to slap her child.

Sleepy · 10-09-2004 12:23PM

daveg wrote:

Where did you take this to be my attitude? I totally agree a lot of parents don't deserve kids. I think we actually agree on this point. As someone once said you need a licence to own a dog but any bastard can have a child.

You maintained that as I don't have children it invalidates my opinion. To me this read as saying that only those who have children can have an opinion on this matter.

daveg wrote:

You wrote:
I don't recall you mentioning anywhere that your comments were on the condition that "parents consent was given"

I'll quote myself so:

Sleepy wrote:

Once there was parental consent for corporal punishment in schools I wouldn't have a problem with it.

daveg wrote:

Well I do apologise. It appears you have adequete experience in the matter to dish out advice to a worried mother, what with you having younger siblings and a sister who works in childcare. The fact still remains you do not have kids and as such, imo, your opinions are not well informed. If you have a good idea of the trust given from parents to childcare workers then how come you say it's ok for the worker to slap a child. This is totally against childcare rules and philosophy.

I never said it was okay for the worker to slap the child. I stated that it was a law I didn't agree with and then in a later post backed up Bandraoi's point that there's no point in going in to attack the carer until the facts had been established. Lisa took this to mean that I was insinuating her child was a liar.

Sleepy wrote:

In the circumstances you describe, however, I'd be a bit pissed off alright. No point in storming in taking the head off the teacher though. As bandraoi says, there could be a perfectly rational explanation for it.

daveg wrote:

Where did you state the slap would be on the face or the behind? You were the one giving the opinion it is ok to slap a child.

here:

Sleepy wrote:

Absolutely no harm in a slap across the arse when a child misbehaves

daveg wrote:

My intention was not to attack you. In fact I apologise if this is the way my post read. However I do think it is ignorant for someone who does not have kids to tell an upset, probably at wits end, experienced parent that it is ok for a child carer to slap her child.

Apologoy accepted. As I already stated, I never said it was okay for the carer to slap Lisa's son. I probably dragged this off-topic somewhat and I apologise for that.

lisa.c · 10-09-2004 09:45PM

have read all replies and thanks, all points taken on board, and after discussing with my other half we have decided to let it go and see if my son says it again.
while i know my son was not fibbing about it im not going to make an issue out of it and put him in a position where he might be excluded by the teacher in question wether it be in games or learing.
if it does happen again i will confront them and take it from there.
thanks again everyone every opinion has been taken on board.

elivsvonchiaing · 10-09-2004 10:41PM

lisa.c wrote:

have read all replies and thanks, all points taken on board, and after discussing with my other half we have decided to let it go and see if my son says it again.
while i know my son was not fibbing about it im not going to make an issue out of it and put him in a position where he might be excluded by the teacher in question wether it be in games or learing.
if it does happen again i will confront them and take it from there.
thanks again everyone every opinion has been taken on board.

Lisa I voted yes in your poll and gave my 5 cent worth. I should have further qualified this with ages 7 and above.

I feel therefore I have to add this...

If you and the father have never given your son the odd smack, then maybe you should consider going to the teacher - as already suggested - in a non-confrontational manner.

In the mind of a 3 year-old this could be perceived as the worst thing that ever happened, so he may not mention it again.

This may cause embarassment if it turns out he was fibbing - but in your son's interest - embarassment worth risking.

You don't want him to hate school and have no idea why he hates it in later years.

Lenny · 11-09-2004 02:16PM

haha, just noticed all the bad karma I'm after getting from my post "little ****ebag proberly deserved it"
well, fair play to the person who gave me the positive karma "someone had to say it"
you know who you're

Mercury_Tilt · 11-09-2004 02:30PM

This post has been deleted.

Lenny · 11-09-2004 02:56PM

haha, so much effort put into that post merc
all for merc
thanks!

teacher smacking a child!

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