teacher smacking a child!

lisa.c

i know this should probably be in the parenting forum but i dont feel ill get enough response so ill post it here!

does any one know what the law is when it comes to a pre/playschool teacher smacking your child?

i'm sure its not allowed but if it happened what can you do about it?

tba

if they hit your kid you tell the guards, its child abuse

impr0v

What did you do to make the teacher angry Lisa?

lisa.c

the the child is almost 3. would he be believed if i made a complaint!
what would happen if i did complain?
i know kids can have wild imaginations and make up stuff , but its only his 3rd day of play school.

ChipZilla

Corporal punishment/smacking somebody is covered by the Non-Fatal Offences Against the Person Act, 1997. Which would make it a matter for the cops. A 3-year old kid would hardly make up something like that...

Quatre Mains

Tough call to make, sounds like big dilemna for you! If you do decide not to go to the cops then go to the school at least and confront them over it. Even if the kid turns out to be lying they will understand why you're upset over the matter. Only tip I would have is to be constructive, making threats to sue for a 'hewige bleedin clayim" could make you look like a fake. Best of luck

lisa.c

ya not sure wether to confront her or not.. dont want my son to be put in a worse situation by saying something.

i am quite upset about it but dont know wether i should make a deal out of it or just let it go.

is it a big deal or am i just bein thick about it?

ChipZilla

Have a word with the teacher - say that your kid has told you he was smacked,that you would like an explanation as your son would have no reason to lie about this, and that if you hear of the same thing happening again you will take legal advice and get the cops involved.

That should put the sh1ts up them in any case...

Hagar

Confrontation, head on, no holds barred, is the only course of action.
People of my generation were abused for years because nobody stood up for us.
Don't let it happen to your child.

da_deadman

Yeah, I think you should talk to them about it. It is against the law, and for good reason, and you need to find out what happened. If it happens again, then you have no option but to go to the police. I can understand, from helping my aunt who runs a playschool, that it can be tough to handle a lot of children like that but if the person can't handle it then she is in the wrong job. It's probably better not to be too confrontational and to discuss the matter but tell the teacher that if it does happen again then you will have to take the matter further...

...of course if it was my child I would have to be restrained from a bit of 'corporal punishment' on the teacher...

ChipZilla

da_deadman wrote:

...of course if it was my child I would have to be restrained from a bit of 'corporal punishment' on the teacher...

That was my first thought as well.

Sleepy

This is one law I've never understood. Sure, there was plenty of abuse of corporal punishment but at the same time, as a principle it worked didn't it? Kid acts up, kid gets slapped, kid doesn't do it again. Absolutely no harm in a slap across the arse when a child misbehaves. My parents did it to me and I'll do it to my kids if I ever have any.

da_deadman

Yes and I'd tend to agree with you Sleepy, but the problem here is that it was the teacher who slapped the child, and not the parent. It is not up to the teacher to discipline the child this way. I think that the law is correct when it comes to children being slapped by anyone other then their own parents.
Remember when George Bush spanked Bart Simpson? Well, Homer was right when he said it was his right to be able to raise a disobedient smart-alecky kid.

IgnatiusJRiley

Sleepy wrote:

This is one law I've never understood. Sure, there was plenty of abuse of corporal punishment but at the same time, as a principle it worked didn't it? Kid acts up, kid gets slapped, kid doesn't do it again. Absolutely no harm in a slap across the arse when a child misbehaves. My parents did it to me and I'll do it to my kids if I ever have any.

Exactly! And imagine having 10 or 15 of the little br... darlings! Slap one of them and the rest might learn something as well!!

ChipZilla

Sleepy wrote:

This is one law I've never understood. Sure, there was plenty of abuse of corporal punishment but at the same time, as a principle it worked didn't it? Kid acts up, kid gets slapped, kid doesn't do it again. Absolutely no harm in a slap across the arse when a child misbehaves.

What's not to understand, unless you're a caveman? It's the same reason you can't punch your missus in the jaw or slap her in the face when she acts up. :rolleyes:

Big people hitting smaller people can cause damage - physical and mental.

Sleepy wrote:

My parents did it to me and I'll do it to my kids if I ever have any.

Best of luck with that....

Victor

IgnatiusJRiley wrote:

Slap one of them and the rest might learn something as well!!

That hitting people makes you the Alpha Male?

Bard

lisa.c wrote:

ya not sure wether to confront her or not.. dont want my son to be put in a worse situation by saying something.

i am quite upset about it but dont know wether i should make a deal out of it or just let it go.

is it a big deal or am i just bein thick about it?

I'd certainly consider it a big deal if anyone ever laid a hand on any child of mine.

If it were me, I'd confront the teacher, acting at the time like it isn't a big deal - so she's more likely to admit when asked that she hit my child - then when she does, take the matter straight to the school management and threaten to involve the authorities if she ever does it again.

BrookieD

there is now way anybody should be able to smack a small child, there are other ways to deal with problems from small tots. If any body even raised a hand to my son there would be hell to pay.

Lenny

Little ****ebag proberly deserved the little slap

Sleepy

ChipZilla wrote:

What's not to understand, unless you're a caveman? It's the same reason you can't punch your missus in the jaw or slap her in the face when she acts up. :rolleyes:

Big people hitting smaller people can cause damage - physical and mental.



Best of luck with that....

Ah, the bleeding heart liberal rears it's head. Slapping children is not inherantly an evil thing. It teaches discipline and it works. It's attitudes like yours which has the country in such a state with so many kids running riot and behaving like spoilt brats because they have been spoiled: by parents who want to be their best mate instead of being their parents.

da_deadman wrote:

Yes and I'd tend to agree with you Sleepy, but the problem here is that it was the teacher who slapped the child, and not the parent. It is not up to the teacher to discipline the child this way. I think that the law is correct when it comes to children being slapped by anyone other then their own parents.
Remember when George Bush spanked Bart Simpson? Well, Homer was right when he said it was his right to be able to raise a disobedient smart-alecky kid.

Fair enough, under our current legal system a teacher isn't allowed to slap a child so your advice is probably the best in these circumstances. However, we disagree entirely on you last sentance. Being a parent should be a privelege and responsibility, not a right. I don't think it's anyone's right to raise "a disobedient smart-alecky kid", it's not fair to the child or society in general to drag children up in that manner.

ChipZilla

Sleepy wrote:

Ah, the bleeding heart liberal rears it's head. Slapping children is not inherantly an evil thing. It teaches discipline and it works. It's attitudes like yours which has the country in such a state with so many kids running riot and behaving like spoilt brats because they have been spoiled: by parents who want to be their best mate instead of being their parents.

Ha ha, right you are sleepy. You don't even have kids and already you're an expert on disciplining them?

I'm starting to think you should be named after one of the other of the Seven Dwarves instead of sleepy... And I don't mean doc, happy, sneezy or bashful.


:rolleyes:

da_deadman

Having children, and raising them, is a privelege and a responsibility. As a parent your first duty is to your children and not to yourself (until the child reaches adulthood). There are a lot of parents I know of who do not take this responsibility seriously enough. This is what has children 'running riot and behaving like spoilt brats'. It is not because they have not been slapped but more because their parents are too lazy to work on their responsibility to their children.
When I said it was his 'right' I was merely paraphrasing what Homer said, and I agree it is not a right to rear a child to be 'disobedient and smart-alecky' but I think it should be the parents right to choose how they discipline their own children (within the law). No other person, or authority, should ever be allowed to slap a child. It is not a means of getting a child to stop doing something, but merely a show of 'might is right', and that because I'm bigger and stronger than you then I can tell you what to do. This is not a good way to raise a child.

bandraoi

whoever said there is no way that a child of 3 would lie about something like that has never dealt with kids. Some children of 3 definitley would, and not even brats. Kids try out all sorts of different behaviours to see what they can get away with and at the age of 3, no matter how well brought up they're still trying out the full range.

Ask the teacher what happened before deciding what action to take.
The smack may indeed have been warranted and not just for bad behaviour.

Personally I think smacking is ok if the kid does something that's dangerous or that endangers somebody else. In that sort of a situation a short sharp shock can be necessary.

Sleepy

You don't need to have children to understand that slapping is a form of punishment that works. We were all children once ChipZilla. From my own experience, if I was slapped for doing something as a child, I was hesitant to do it again. Therefore, it works.

And if you look at your last post there's not a single argument there, just a few cheapshots at me. Very mature. Take a look at how da deadman argues for his case (holding the same position as yours, he makes points and arguments instead of just having a go at someone. You could learn something from that ChipZilla.

it should be the parents right to choose how they discipline their own children (within the law)

I'd agree with this, however, would you advocate the current position of some that would advocate banning a parent from slapping their child?

It is not a means of getting a child to stop doing something, but merely a show of 'might is right', and that because I'm bigger and stronger than you then I can tell you what to do.

While I can see the thinking behind this, I'm not inclined to agree with it. To me, it teaches children that actions have repercussions; misdeeds, punishments. The parent is already in the authorative role so by slapping a child it isn't saying "I'm in charge because I'm bigger", it's saying "what you're doing is wrong and you shouldn't do it again."

Bard

Sleepy wrote:

I'd agree with this, however, would you advocate the current position of some that would advocate banning a parent from slapping their child?

I certainly wouldn't advocate ANYONE slapping anyone ELSE's child.

lisa.c

well the way i see it is that no one absolutly no one has any authority to smack my son except me and his dad.

when he is in play school he is supposed to be cared for and educated not slapped.
if he is bold then punish him appropiatly by taking away privelages or his favourite game.
he's not even three yet.
i totally believe my son, he still has that innocence that children hold... he could'nt fib or lie to save his life - he dosent know how.

Sleepy

Once there was parental consent for corporal punishment in schools I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Sleepy

lisa.c wrote:

i totally believe my son, he still has that innocence that children hold... he could'nt fib or lie to save his life - he dosent know how.

He's going to be pulling the wool over your eyes for years isn't he?

lisa.c

sleepy you dont have kids, but when you do i'll tell you now you'll never tolerate any one else smacking them.

when i did'nt have my son i had your attitude but it all changes when you become a parent.

your first instinct as a parent is to protect.

lisa.c

have you ever heard of a childs innocence? some day you'll see it in your own kids.
i know my son dosent lie he never has. at his age they just dont know how and they certainly have no concept on how or what it is.

Sleepy

Sorry Lisa, but Children certainly know how to lie from that age. I know I did when I was that age.

And Lisa, if I'd given someone permission to slap my child (which I would be inclined to do) I'd hardly have a problem with them doing it. In the circumstances you describe, however, I'd be a bit pissed off alright. No point in storming in taking the head off the teacher though. As bandraoi says, there could be a perfectly rational explanation for it.

lisa.c

sleepy

my son dosent lie so please dont tell me he does.

and no one has permission to hit my son. i dont care what my son does in school thay have no right to smack him.

also you must be very young to be able to remember what you did as a 2 and a half year old

Stark

lisa.c wrote:

i totally believe my son, he still has that innocence that children hold... he could'nt fib or lie to save his life - he dosent know how.

You should remember that as a parent you're blind to these things, rose-tinted glasses and all that. Every child lies, the best liars are the ones who can hold an innocent face while doing it (from way before age 3 a child is learning what gets results and what doesn't get results). I've seen many parents who believe their child is a little angel when everyone else knows what a little monster they are, the child sits before the parent with a sweet little smile on their face playing them for all their worth, whilst sneering at their teacher with that little grin that says "you can only hope for this kind of power". Remember what they are - miniature people.

Not that any of that applies to your child Just remember to be objective, listen to both sides of the story and give them both equal treatment, don't automatically side with your child because the child may be lying because they're bitter about getting a scolding or whatever or the child may actually have an over-active imagination or mis-read a situation. For example make sure the child knows that "smacking" means actual physical contact and not a scolding, it's entirely possible for a 3-year old to mix words up. The teacher may have given the child a tap on the palm of the hand with a ruler to signify disapproval. Just don't go into the situation all militant screaming "You battered by little precious" as if the child will never walk again as many parents do. Though the fact that you're taking time to think things through shows that you won't be one of them

And finally if you do find out that the teacher did actually smack the child, then you do have a right to go to the gardaí.

Sleepy

lisa, how do you know your son doesn't lie? He might just be good at it, or as Stark pointed out, you may just be blind to it.

And I'm 24, but yes I have some memories of being 3 and, for that matter, 2.

Stark

also you must be very young to be able to remember what you did as a 2 and a half year old

I remember things I've done as a 1 and a half year old and I'm 22. (My grandparents died before I turned 2 and I can remember time spent with them). Although I don't remember conciously lying at that age. I learnt quickly though. In fact I lied more often than I told the truth. My brother was a skilled manipulator and up until the age of about 12 he lied constanly to my parents, often faking bruises by rubbing skin vigorously and then claiming I battered him in order to fire up a situation. (He nearly got me thrown out of home several times). Needless to say he made my life a misery. It was only when he hit puberty and didn't hold as much control over that "little angel smile and sweet sweet voice" that things got better for me and my parents started to see through his lies. Thank goodness my sister turned out to be the traditionalist tantrum throwing, "I lied about taking that bar of chocolate" child.

bandraoi

supposing just for instance your son and another child were standing at the top of a staircase, being carefully supervised etc. and your son and the other kid were just messing around as kids do and your son gave the other kid a playful push as kids playing will do.

In that situation if the supervising teacher gave your child a quick sharp slap and said stop it I would be fully supportive. The child isn't doing anything wrong really, a three year old doesn't know how to distinguish between the fact that playful pushing is ok normally versus playful pushing where there's an obvious danger present but needs to be gotten to stop the behaviour immediatly.

There are hundreds and thousands of such situations.

Talk to the teacher.

Naos

I agree with giving a kid a little smack if he misbehaves. I got a little smack if i did something wrong "dont touch that button" type things. So long as it doesnt leave a mark its fine. But i dont agree with hitting a child whose not your own.. So i'd go up to the school and ... above.

Stark

Well in that situation the teacher would still not be within their rights to give the child an actual slap. Corporal punishment is illegal after all. The likelihood is the child won't even know why they're getting slapped, they'll assume they were smacked simply for playing rather than being smacked for pushing the child too close to stairs. The teacher needs to be clear on the explaining to the child the danger and choose a punishment that doesn't involve physically hurting the child. Only parents have a right to smack their children and even that could only be a temporary right, with the new laws that are being proposed in England and will no doubt be proposed in Ireland if they're passed in England.

da_deadman

None of us here can say whether or not your son does lie Lisa. He may, or he may not. As Stark said, people learn very quickly what works and what doesn't. He may not realise he is lying per se, but may just be trying to get his own way, as people will generally try to do. Or he may be telling the whole truth and nothing but the truth. The only thing to do is to be calm and rational, to go into the teacher, and talk about what happened. Then if you know for sure that she hit your son, then you must officially report it to the school and tell them that you will go to the gardai if it happens again. You must tell the school about it, as they need to know in case she hits someone else's child the next time...

And, Sleepy, no I dont think that it should be against the law for parents to slap their own child if that is the manner of 'discipline' they choose. However, it is a tricky area. As I said before, and think you might agree, a lot of parents dont really work too much on their responsibility to their children. I think if a parent is going to slap a child they have to be very responsible and not just beat a child around the room. It has to be a constructive learning experience and not just an act of aggression. However, I feel that because of the lack of responsibility in a lot of parents, they would not be capable of discipling their child properly with slapping them. Instead it would just be an act of child abuse, not proper rearing.

And Bard is so right, his point has to be repeated, no-one should ever slap anyone else's child. There should never even be the possibility of giving permission to anyone else that they can slap your child. It is the parents responsibility of discipling their child, no-one else's.

Swarfboy

Lisa,
Nobody has a right to punish your child and whether a "smacking" actually took place or not you have every right to feel angry, worried etc...
I would advise you to do the best you can as you are his one and only Mammy "you know best" and also ignore the idiots that plague this site..
Everyone is quick to give their own opinions when the only ones that count are yours and the childs father's/

da_deadman

Thats right Swarfboy, it is ultimately up to the parents to decide on the best course of action for a child.
But dont forget this, Lisa.c was the one who started this thread asking for our opinions and advice. The 'Mammy' came to us for advice, so why should she then "ignore the idiots that plague this site". In fact, if she follows your advice, she will have to ignore your post. :rolleyes:

I think I'm gonna give you the frowning of a lifetime

Swarfboy

Hey now Deadman....what's with the bad rep...if Lisa ignores my post along with everyone else's then I have achieved exactly what I meant in my post.
Even if Lisa did ask for opinions it didn't warrant some of the responses therefore my advise to her was to ignore all and make up her own mind...
I didn't think it was that bad.!

Sleepy

The advice I was giving Swarfboy is that she shouldn't natuarally assume that just because her son said the teacher slapped him that it actually happened. It could have been something as innocent as her happening to turn around and him running into her hand.

And I'd worry about anyone using any version of the line "mother knows best". It's one of the very reasons that so much child abuse has gone unreported and the attitude has irrepairably damaged thousands of lives.

da_deadman

Lisa wants advice -> goes to boards.ie -> asks question -> gets answers -> gets told to ignore all answers -> Lisa ignores answers -> Lisa is now back to point one of wanting advice

I just think you could give your opinion on the matter, and not start making calls to "ignore the idiots that plague this site". We are all only giving our opinion on the question Lisa asked, and about the resultant discussion. I'm sure Lisa is able to make up her own mind of what to do, but maybe some of the advice here made her think about it more, or reassured her about the right course of action to take.

koneko

I'd approach the teacher, and ask her what he's talking about/what happened. Children, while not lying maliciously like adult may do, might have an overactive imagination and things might have happened differently to the way he says.

If it's a situation where she slapped him because she's disciplining him or teaching him a lesson, then I would complain to whoever runs the facility in the very least.

beer enigma

lisa.c wrote:

sleepy

my son dosent lie so please dont tell me he does.

and no one has permission to hit my son. i dont care what my son does in school thay have no right to smack him.

I'm fully with you on this one - my eldest chances her arm & tries to fib sometimes, but she's dreadful at it & you'd suss her in an instance - that's the beauty of innocence & long may it continue.

I don't care what the situation is, NO ONE has the right to smack my child. It happened to my 3 yr old in a creche in Cork once & the care assistant involved was removed instantly. I didn't have time to complain, by the time I'd got to the creche, she'd already been given her cards - standard policy in any creche or montessori.

I was never smacked as a child & my kids are not smacked either. Now, maybe I'm blessed with the best children in the world (& I proudly admit to being biased), but if they do wrong, I use the reasoning route & it works fine for me.

lisa.c

thanks for all the comments.

i would just like to say i understand where some of you are comming from when ye say that maybe my son is a just looking for reactions etc etc, i assure you all he isnt. he said it in the same tone as he did when he told me how much fun he had. he was'nt looking for anything he said it as if it was normal.
my son is no angel and i smack him and punish him, so im under no illusions that he is an angel.

i just dont want any one other than me and his dad to smack him.

also this is a private playschool run by a women and two helpers.

pickarooney

Maybe there was a scrap and two of the kids were giving one another digs? There's no way of sorting that out unless you prove that because you're bigger and stronger you have the authority.

Stark

Do talk to the teacher in question. Unless she's a nutcase who likes hitting kids for the fun of it then she probably slapped the child thinking it was okay to do so, and as such probably won't deny it straight out. And like I said in a previous post, she might not have actually smacked him but made a "smacking gesture" like tapping him on the wrist with a finger saying "bold" or something which your son could have interpreted as a smack. Did your son tell you why he was smacked (probably not, as I don't think most kids know why they get smacked, I know I never knew what I was getting smacked for as a kid which is why I'm partially opposed to kids being smacked).

ixoy

lisa.c wrote:

well the way i see it is that no one absolutly no one has any authority to smack my son except me and his dad.

True. I saw the movie "Jeux d'enfants" there and there was a gasp of shock when one parent hit his son's friend. I found it off too. It's not their business to physically punish your child. If the child needs to be disciplined there are other means available to them.
Even if your son aggravated them, it's up to them - as the older and more mature person - to treat the situation properly. Deny play, as you say. Hitting another child, knowing the power an adult has, doesn't sit right with me.

i totally believe my son, he still has that innocence that children hold... he could'nt fib or lie to save his life - he dosent know how.

Well here's where we may disagree a little. Dammit I don't have it to hand, but I know I've read/seen studies that prove children, even as young as yours, are more than capable of lying to manipulate a situation to their advantage. Which isn't to say they're being evilly devious, it's just that the concept of lie/truth isn't concrete yet in their minds.

daveg

Firstly I'm going to try to help Lisa. Myself and my GF were in nearly the exact same situation as you when my son was 3. He came home from the playschool/Creche and told us that one of the girls had told him he could not sit down and he had to stand in the corner whilst the other kids were read a story. Like yourself we did not know what to do, but we knew we had to do something. We spoke to the manager of the creche and explained, calmly, the situation. We also told her that our son my have been "telling tales" etc. She promised us she would investigate which she did and reported back that the employee in questions didn't refuse my son the chair. We then had a chat with my son and he admitted he was telling tales. This is just a natural learning stage for children. As someone mentioned earlier kids test the boundaries etc. My advice to you Lisa is talk to your child and also talk to the manager. Don't leave the situation until you are fully happy with the outcome. We were happy that the outcome was that my son was telling tales.

However if you still feel that the employee in question did slap your child then I personally would go to fúcking town on them. I would file a complaint with the garda's.

Finally to Sleepy and others saying that slapping a 3 year old child (especially a creche employee or a teacher) is a highly ignorant statement to make. Sleepy when you have kids of your own come back and make a comment. You have no idea of childcare/creche care facilities and the trust one must put in the employees who look after your kids. Tbh your comments are the most ignorant I have read in a very long time on boards and that saying something. If you feel it is ok for a creche care employee to slap your 3 year then you should be reported to social services NOW before you have any kids.

Lisa this is why you should have maybe posted on parenting instead of afterhours. In parenting you would have got a response from like minded parents. Aware of your situation and adequately qualified (ie have kids as well) to give advice. Where as when you post on afterhours you get idiot's like sleepy who think they know everything, but actually know nothing.