EU to remove Irish as offical European Language

OfflerCrocGod · 12-12-2003 01:31AM

I agree with skipn_easy let's dump French as a matter let's all dump all languages except English, that by the way, would to me make my YEAR - all these stupid languages are just walls so lets tear them down!!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE*.

*who speak English and can do amusing tricks.

BKtje · 12-12-2003 01:38AM

I would assume that the 20 official languages of the EU would be the 20 most used languages. Obviously irish would not be one of them not matter how many irish people you get to sign the petitions.

I would be interested to see a list of languages that have been included as im willing to wager each of them has more native speakers (or speakers in general) than Irish. If you manage to convince me that one of those languages is less spoken then irish then ill be very happy to sign the petition.

Those who are comparing French, german etc to irish remember that you will not be denied a job cos you can't speak irish in ireland (unless a job that requires it obviously) however you could very easily be refused a job in France or germany for not speaking the language. That is why French and german are taught. (but i know most of you know that

)

skipn_easy · 12-12-2003 01:51AM

I'd agree completely. If they're going to choose 20 languages they should be the most used languages. And it shouldn't take anything away from how irish is used in Ireland.

Civilian_Target · 12-12-2003 02:01AM

Originally posted by Einstürzende

Funny that, when I've been in Wales (several times) I've heard alot more spoken Welsh than I have Irish in this country.

Funny that. You from Dublin? Well, then it's like hearing Welsh spoken in London, there are relatively few Irish speakers in Dublin. I live in Letterkenny, I go to college in Belfast, I've heard plenty of Irish in Belfast and of course in Donegal too, I hear it spoken on the bus every time I go home. Irish is alive and kicking, especially compared to Welsh. Needless to say, I've signed the petition.

Töpher · 12-12-2003 02:03AM

Good for you.

skipn_easy · 12-12-2003 02:13AM

Civilian

What difference will removing Irish from the 20 official languages of the EU make to the irish language in ireland?

sceptre · 12-12-2003 02:49AM

Here's a newsflash:

Irish has never been an official language of the EU.

Anyone ever notice that official EU documents aren't produced in Irish (and never have been)? Some of the local brochures are printed in Irish by the gang in Molesworth Street but it's never been an official language for publications. That was a decision made by the Irish government in 1972-73, not imposed by the EU.

Conradh na Gaeilge are trying to get Irish designated as an official language, not trying to get the EU to retain Irish as an official language (read the page posted carefully).

The current official languages for publication are English, German, French, Spanish, (standard) Italian, Danish, Dutch/Flemish, Portuguese, Finnish, Swedish and Greek. Not being on this list (Catalan, Basque, Scots-Gaelic, Welsh anyone?) doesn't mean that the EU doesn't recognise the existence of the language or anything else - it just doesn't publish documentation in languages other than the ones on the list. The issue is communication, not recognition.

So the debate is whether directives etc should be published in Irish or not. And the people to campaign to are the Dail members - it's the individual country's legislature that decides whether any individual language spoken in that country will be recognised as an official EU language - which is only fair, as that country will be paying for the translators and interpreters to translate into that language (total bill for translation in the EU is over 650 million euros annually)

You might as well be completely aware of what you're arguing about:)

Mossy Monk · 12-12-2003 05:46AM

more EU bull****. if only they keep their mouths shut. what's the need for an official language list in the EU anyway?

have they finalised the banning of fry ups for truckers yet? that was another thing they were playing with :rolleyes:

luckat · 12-12-2003 08:04AM

The EU has, generally, a really good and helpful policy on minority languages and endangered languages; the fact that it won't be one of the "official languages" probably - I don't know, but probably - just means that all documents won't have to be translated into Irish.

As for whether we should speak it, that's up to individuals. I'll be weeping with gratitude if anyone wants to speak Irish to me, and will very happily speak Irish with anyone who does.

And as for whether it should be taught in school; well, all I can say is that almost anyone I know who went to a Gaelscoil picks up other languages like fluff.

The problem (in my view) with the teaching of Irish is not that it's taught or not taught; it's that it's taught without love.

For instance, a teacher in a school where friends go - a Northern Protestant teacher, as it happens - instituted a Gaeilge Cafe every Friday for an hour, where everyone in her class just drank tea and coffee and ate cakes and spoke Irish. The interest, liking and fluency zoomed upwards, and every kid in that class *wanted* to learn Irish from then on.

TomTom · 12-12-2003 09:10AM

Originally posted by Civilian_Target
Funny that. You from Dublin? Well, then it's like hearing Welsh spoken in London, there are relatively few Irish speakers in Dublin. I live in Letterkenny, I go to college in Belfast, I've heard plenty of Irish in Belfast and of course in Donegal too, I hear it spoken on the bus every time I go home. Irish is alive and kicking, especially compared to Welsh. Needless to say, I've signed the petition.

A barman over here in vietnam was able to say hello goodbye and several different phrases in irish (he was vietnamise). The language is recognised as far as i can see as being our national language but the majority of the world. One or two people even inquired why we spoke english as they presumed we all spoke irish. The fact the the eu is not adopting it as an official language is trivia in my opinion.

Havelock · 12-12-2003 10:05AM

I (being half French and half Irish) take alot of pride in my Irish, I'm nowear near as fluent in Irish (D1 in the leaving) as French. But it is equally as important to me as my French. Its part of my cultural identy.

Imposter · 12-12-2003 10:35AM

Another point although not entirely relevant is that Irish is on the current EU driving licences. I'm not sure about the other minority languages but I don't think any of them are there.

BuffyBot · 12-12-2003 10:52AM

its not saying that irish will not be the official language of ireland just that it won't be an official language of the EU big deal

Indeed. Big wow, the EU won't be publishing documents in Irish, that's about it. It has no effect on the use of Irish within Ireland or it's status in the constitution.

L4 · 12-12-2003 10:58AM

Fair play to the EU. It's about time we waved goodbye to this ancient jibber jabber.
If people want to speak it, then that's their own problem, the rest of us shouldn't have to be forced to learn this pointless language as children. If people want to speak Oirish to cling onto the past well then fair enough, there's nothing the Government can do about it.
It's typical of this country, we are trying to hold onto as much of our past as possible. Hell, why don't we just move to a cottage in Connomara and raise pigs in our front rooms. It's the 21st century.

Matt Simis · 12-12-2003 11:14AM

Originally posted by L4
Fair play to the EU. It's about time we waved goodbye to this ancient jibber jabber.
If people want to speak it, then that's their own problem, the rest of us shouldn't have to be forced to learn this pointless language as children. If people want to speak Oirish to cling onto the past well then fair enough, there's nothing the Government can do about it.
It's typical of this country, we are trying to hold onto as much of our past as possible. Hell, why don't we just move to a cottage in Connomara and raise pigs in our front rooms. It's the 21st century.

While I agree, you should aso read what sceptre posted above, Irish was never on the list of 11 languages of the EU. They arent "dropping" or "taking away" the language (as the petition implies).

I rose a few eyebrows in work by replying to a mail sent round with less than positive things to say about this petition. Afaik, millions of people speak Basque and Catalan as their primary language. They wont be recognised either. These people have a valid reason for a petition, we dont.

Matt

Mewzel · 12-12-2003 11:16AM

Originally posted by Civilian_Target
Funny that. You from Dublin? Well, then it's like hearing Welsh spoken in London, there are relatively few Irish speakers in Dublin.

i dont think that's a very logical comparison. dublin is the capital of ireland, london aint the capital of wales! there would yes, be very little chance of hearing a welsh conversation in london. probably as little as hearing an irish conversation in london actually :rolleyes:

L4 · 12-12-2003 11:18AM

I agree Matt.

Capt'n Midnight · 12-12-2003 11:24AM

So you need 380,000 people to have an official language...

Sardinia, several distinct dialects of Sardo have more than 380,000 speakers. The south was under arab control, the east was under catalan / aragon, the north under piedmont etc. so the diversity is greater than all the dialects of English.

In the rest of Italy - 150 years ago only 2% spoke what we call Italian (Tuscan). Most of the other 98% still have local dialects. In the north there are French and German speakers - but it's a bit like Provencal and the other is not "hoch deustch" (SP)

Spain - in addition to Castellian there's Basque / Catalan / and I can't spell the language they use in the North West..

How about indo-european - a lot of reserach into phrenology etc needed. So in the mean time could have 5 different languages - one from each family - Celtic, Romance Languages, Germanic, Finish/Hungarian and Basque.

vinnyfitz · 12-12-2003 11:38AM

What Sceptre said.

This is not a case of "EU to remove Irish as offical European Language"

There is absolutely no change in the status of the Irish language being planned or negotiated.

Irish never had the status that the email quoted in the first post implies. It was a deliberate decision of Paddy Hillery (then Foreign Minister) when negotiating accession in 1972 not to insist on this status for Irish. Now we can argue about whether he was right or not but it would be tough for our negotiators to argue for enhanced status for Irish at this stage given we have struggled through without it for the first 30 years of membership.

seamus · 12-12-2003 11:44AM

Originally posted by sceptre
Here's a newsflash:

Irish has never been an official language of the EU.

Heh. It did strike me as weird that the shock revelation was it was being removed as a language.

Nothing is changing people...Irish has never been, and probably never will be an officially recognised language of the EU.

So Maltese only has 380,000 speakers? Don't forget the fact that Malta has a population of less than 500,000. Most Maltese people speak Maltese. Most Irish people speak English. Most Welsh people speak English.

You can use facts to prove anything isn't a joke, it's a truth that groups use to twist data and statistics to get it to say whatever they want.

You need to look beyond the spin...

Capt'n Midnight · 12-12-2003 11:46AM

Lets suppose the EU decides to recognise only National Languages where there are more than 380,000 speakers in the EU.

Turkish, Mandrian Chineese etc. etc.

L4 · 12-12-2003 11:49AM

Ban it. And ban religion in schools.

TacT · 12-12-2003 11:51AM

One of the biggest problems for this country is the fact that we don't learn another language that will benefit us later in life, as opposed to the Swede's/German/French/Spanish etc who will usually speak at least two languages and possibly more.

For something worthwhile to come of this they need to get kids learning something other than a redundant language that has no use on a day to day basis and is only being preserved because it is part of our culture.

We would be a lot better off with a 2nd European language as opposed to Irish. You don't see the French in the west of France teaching Breton to school kids there and it's still a strong aspect of their culture. (just to pick a small example)

beardedchicken · 12-12-2003 12:00PM

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
How about indo-european - a lot of reserach into phrenology etc needed.

umm... i assume you mean philology (a fancy term for historical linguistics) rather than phrenology which is the "reading" of a person's personality by examining the bumps on their head (it's complete pseudo-science by the way).

now, as someone said before, this is not some huge affront to speakers of irish, it's not removing something that was always there, it's just not including it as one of the official languages which, by EU law, all communications must be published in. correct me if i'm wrong, but i would say that irish speakers in ireland would, by and large, be bilingual, so reading communications from the EU in english would not be a problem. this doesn't affect the status of irish in ireland, nor should it affect people's attachment to the language (if that's what they want) or heritage.

so, to be honest, this is really not going to affect the everyday lives of irish people, whether irish-speaking or not. we should be sending round petitions and making our voices heard about things that really will affect our daily lives and the way the state governs, like voting weights etc

slightly unrelated, but i noticed on the british news yesterday that there was controversy about the proposed EU constitution from a number of countries. germany and poland were in disagreement about the allocation of voting weights based on population size, and britain was worried about the common defence policy, and what is ireland getting its knickers in a twist over??? GOD! instead of concentrating on the pragmatic implications of the constitution, ireland's griping about whether we should mention god! no wonder they don't want to include the irish language, when the priorities of the government are so screwed up!

maybe the irish government is so used to a constitution having little relevance to the daily lives of its people that it doesn't feel the need to worry about trivial matters like the economic and political implications of it.

for example:

quote:

Originally posted by Sarky
Yes, but you see, France, Germany and Britain actually speak French, German and English, don't they?

I realise that. it is however part of the constitution

quote:

Article 8 of “Bunreacht na hÉireann” [Constitution of Ireland], enacted in 1937, states that:

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognized as the second official language.

3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the state or in any part thereof.

this doesn't bear any relation to the vast majority of irish people, but then again, this isn't the only instance in which the constitution is wildly out of step with reality, after all, the constitution also enshrines the place of women in the home, stating:

Article 41

2. 1° In particular, the State recognises that by her life within the home, woman gives to the State a support without which the common good cannot be achieved.

spongebob · 12-12-2003 05:58PM

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
So you need 380,000 people to have an official language...

Dublin Skangers alone would make up 380,000 people, d'y'narrwha'Imeeyun man ?

Then there are some minor skanger dialects elsewhere too .

M

Victor · 12-12-2003 06:15PM

As I understand it Irish is an official language, just not a working language, i.e. it is recognised but you can't demand they EU respond to you in Irish. The New Constitution raises Irish to the level of official language.

Originally posted by Muck
Give Anto and Deco a few Eu translating jobs .

But how would they get these high skill jobs, they can't write and they can't speak English (other than the swear words)?

Kold · 12-12-2003 07:05PM

Some call the membership to the EU a bridge... Now get the f**k over it.

No1 speaks Irish, the only people who care are embittered whiners

Capt'n Midnight · 12-12-2003 07:33PM

Originally posted by seamus
Most Maltese people speak Maltese

Ah but sure isn't maltese just another dialect of Italian

I'd be very suprised if most of the population didn't have either Italian or English too.

AdMMM · 12-12-2003 08:09PM

Personally I blame the Brits :mad:

Cork · 12-12-2003 08:19PM

Originally posted by Sarky
Most of that 40 odd percent is probably kids stuck in school, waiting for the day they can forget about it.

Irish is practically a dead language. Blame the way it's been taught for the past 50 years or so.

But - I started learning it again last September in Cork. What a relevation - if it is tought well - people will learn it.

I was never a fan of the Irish Language - But I am a convert. Schools should drop poetry & Prose in favour of fluency.

I have another 10 weeks to go in a 20 week course. The course is basic but I am really enjoying it. TG4 are excellent as well.

EU to remove Irish as offical European Language

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