EU to remove Irish as offical European Language

tba

Dont know if this is true or not, but I got this E-mail today.

A chairde,
Following the accession in May, the EU shall have 20 official languages.
Gaeilge (Irish) will not be included. Now whether you like the language
or
not, this is an insult to Ireland and an erosion of yet another part of
our
national identity.

Let me put it to you this way, how would the French or Germans react if
their languages were not included??? How about the Brits??
This is also the FF government, yet again, giving the fingers to 380,000
of
Irelands citizens (who for the most part are incidentally are located in
the north and west of Ireland).

Now this might seem like a trivial thing to you, but if they are willing
to
and get away with ignoring a member country's official language, what
else
will Ireland be rail-roaded into?
It's up to you. Is it OK for us to be second class citizens in
Europe????
Will that do us, like it did
all the generations before us??

I encourage you all to sign and forward this petition. Who know's?? The
longest journey begin with one step......

Sign the Online petition here

Sarky

Yes, but you see, France, Germany and Britain actually speak French, German and English, don't they?

In my experience the only people I've met who don't speak Irish because of the grant bonus or because they're Irish lecturers are American students.

tba

Originally posted by Sarky
Yes, but you see, France, Germany and Britain actually speak French, German and English, don't they?

In my experience the only people I've met who don't speak Irish because of the grant bonus or because they're Irish lecturers are American students.

I realise that. it is however part of the constitution

Article 8 of “Bunreacht na hÉireann” [Constitution of Ireland], enacted in 1937, states that:

1. The Irish language as the national language is the first official language.

2. The English language is recognized as the second official language.

3. Provision may, however, be made by law for the exclusive use of either of the said languages for any one or more official purposes, either throughout the state or in any part thereof.

Reference

TheSonOfBattles

Yea, cause we all know that whole Gealtacht thing was just a lie made up by the goverment to make us learn Irish in School for the last century or so. I mean native Irish speakers, what a joke.

I may not want to learn the language, and think it should be optional in school, rather than compulsory, but I know some people do actually love it, and learn it and use it, so for them...signed.

Woden

its not saying that irish will not be the official language of ireland just that it won't be an official language of the EU big deal

Töpher

Perhaps I'm being narrow-minded here, and I do not want to cause any arguments, so bare in mind these are just my views and opinions.

France/Germany/Engand all have HUGE majorities of people who speak their national language, if not all citizens speak it. English is one of the most spoken languages world wide.

I for one have never ever overheard a conversation in Irish, or engaged in one myself. After the Leaving Cert I have never used Irish ever again.

Perhaps this is a step in the direction towards one unified national European Language? And lets be honest, IF that were to ever happen, Gaelige would not play any sort of a role in it.

Just because the EU dont recognise it as an official language anymore doesn't mean you have to stop speaking it.

Or maybe I'm just an idiot.

Just out of interest, are any other countries having official languages officaially un-recognised?

tba

Originally posted by Einstürzende
France/Germany/Engand all have HUGE majorities of people who speak their national language, if not all citizens speak it. English is one of the most spoken languages world wide.

I for one have never ever overheard a conversation in Irish, or engaged in one myself. After the Leaving Cert I have never used Irish ever again...

...Or maybe I'm just an idiot.

Just out of interest, are any other countries having official languages officaially un-recognised?

According to the 1996 Census, 1.43 million persons aged three and over, returned themselves, or were returned, as Irish speakers in the Republic. This constitutes 43.5 percent of the total population.

Reference

Of course you are not an idiot you are entitled to your opinion, and welsh is also being ignored.

Sarky

Most of that 40 odd percent is probably kids stuck in school, waiting for the day they can forget about it.

Irish is practically a dead language. Blame the way it's been taught for the past 50 years or so.

Töpher

Meh, I think it would be safe to assume that the most exposure to Irish many of those people get is deciphering the signs on the buses. I'm sure to alot of people, getting a leaving/junior cert qualifies them as a speaker. Whether or not they are regular speakers of the language is a different story. I haven't spoken Irish in years, but I did for my LC, therefore I'm a speaker. Because I can speak Irish, but I don't. I think 1.1m of the 1.4m may have been adopting that approach!

Funny that, when I've been in Wales (several times) I've heard alot more spoken Welsh than I have Irish in this country.

fozzle

I used talk in Irish as often as in English in 1st year in college but since I've drifted from those particular friends and stopped doing subjects through Irish my standard and level of use have decreased deplorably.
Still feels weird to go home and not have bilingual bank machines though...(the joy of BOI in Galway!)

Sarky

Bilingual bank machine always struck me as funny and pointless. Numbers are the same in any language...

fozzle

I still use the Irish option, just to make it feel loved...

tba

Bilingual bank machine always struck me as funny and pointless. Numbers are the same in any language...

its all in the accent

Big al

good, now all we need is for them to stop teaching it in schools and start teaching a langauge that people can use from day to day

Silent Bob

Originally posted by tba
Is it OK for us to be second class citizens in
Europe????

How exactly would this make us 'second class citizens'?

And on another note:
Personally I reckon that if Irish was to make any attempt to move with the times it would be more relevant. It is impossible for me to have a discussion about my work in Irish, it completely lacks appropriate vocabulary.

tba

Originally posted by Silent Bob
How exactly would this make us 'second class citizens'?

Quote of a quote there you will have to take that up with the author of the E-mail.

Tusky

well its not REALLY a part of our identity as none of us speak it , the only people who do speak it do so to make a point

nesthead

i think theyre dead right to. its been 110 years since the Gaelic revival and still only a minority speaks Irish.

If a real effort had been made to make it our first language as DeValera wanted id probably be
A. Speaking irish today (which I cant at all) and
B. actually care that aren't making one of the recognised European languages.


they should, its our own fault for not making it a stronger part of our culture, strong enough to merit study by other Europeans. If the majority of us dont bother with it why should anyone else in any other country?


all theyd have to do to make Irish really widespoken is to make ALL primary schools irish speaking, and dont bother to teach the grammar until second level, as irsh was never a widely written language anyway to try to learn its grammar when your very young is quite difficult. maybe im wrong there, maybe someone who studies linguistics would say that you must learn to write a language as you speak it but i would think it would be relativly easy to pick up the written end of a language once you know how to speak it(not forgetting the fact that you know the phonetics and and alphabet of English/other latin/germanic languages)

and in 10-15 years, problem soved. every student has some if not full fluency in Irish. all the people i know who went Gaoilschoils(sp.?) are fluent in Irish.

Capt'n Midnight

Just a reminder that more people speak Catalan than Danish...

Bard

This is disgusting if it's true ... as it seems to be true alright, according to this page on the Conradh na Gaeilge web site.

Ugh!

spongebob

More Irish people speak skanger day to day than Irish.

"Anto , wha iz dah french **** sayin 'bout uz , bleedin bollix , deadly burd he haz wih him tho "

Lets make it our official second language and bump Irish to third and then set up a cultural institute to market it abroad and get students into areas where it is widely spoken to learn it properly.

M

skipn_easy

Originally posted by Big al
good, now all we need is for them to stop teaching it in schools and start teaching a langauge that people can use from day to day

Are you saying that Irish isn't a language that people can use day to day? I know lots of people that use it on a day to day basis. Instead of dropping irish from schools they improve the way its taught so that more people are comfortable using it on a daily basis.

Silent Bob
It is impossible for me to have a discussion about my work in Irish, it completely lacks appropriate vocabulary.

Is it possible to discuss your work 100% in any language other than English? I think you'll find that people who speak irish regularly can discuss any subject they like, perhaps using very technical words here and there from another language if the word doesn't already have an irish translation.

OfflerCrocGod

That's because the danes speak better English than us Irish - 60% of books sold in Denmark are English, there are fears that there language will actually end up dying because youngsters dont see that much Danish stuff on TV and in books http://europa.eu.int/comm/education/policies/lang/languages/lang/europeanlanguages_en.html
Read that and weep it's the same story in the Netherlands and Sweden. Let's respect the dead and bury the Irish language for good!.

spongebob

Originally posted by skipn_easy
Are you saying that Irish isn't a language that people can use day to day? I know lots of people that use it on a day to day basis. Instead of dropping irish from schools they improve the way its taught so that more people are comfortable using it on a daily basis.

I use it day to day but I still recognise that Skanger is unique and charming and exportable. Give Anto and Deco a few Eu translating jobs . We irish are entitled to our unique lingusitic slot in the EU so we may have to be creative to retain it.

Deco , any chance dah burd will tawk ta me if I give her d'eye man, howiya luv, any chance uva roide like ya no wha'Ímeeyun loike ya no!

M

OfflerCrocGod

Originally posted by skipn_easy
I think you'll find that people who speak irish regularly can discuss any subject they like, perhaps using very technical words here and there from another language if the word doesn't already have an irish translation.

A real language like say English???, well why go to the bother then, just speak English from the start to the end and cut the bullsh1t; at least that way there is a chance that the other person will understand you instead of thinking your on drugs.

spongebob

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
A real language like say English???, well why go to the bother then, just speak English from the start to the end and cut the bullsh1t; at least that way there is a chance that the other person will understand you instead of thinking your on drugs.

Skanger is a foreign language to many Irish people even though they "Think" they are speaking english, a delicious irony what ? As for the Dutch and the Spanish they'll simply believe what we tell them.

M

Ronaldo7

good, now all we need is for them to stop teaching it in schools and start teaching a langauge that people can use from day to day

BUMP BUMP BUMP!!!

Id have much rather have extra French in school rather than stinking Irish. I dont use it. Never have used it. Never wanted to use it either.

skipn_easy

Originally posted by OfflerCrocGod
A real language like say English???, well why go to the bother then, just speak English from the start to the end and cut the bullsh1t;

Well why don't we get rid of other languages like french because there isn't a french translation for every technical word out there and you may end up borrowing a word from another language?

Töpher

Originally posted by skipn_easy
Well why don't we get rid of other languages like french because there isn't a french translation for every technical word out there and you may end up borrowing a word from another language?

Because several million people speak French? Compare that to the 20 that speak Irish?

skipn_easy

but i was referring to offlers post which suggested that if you couldn't say what you wanted in 100% the language you were speaking you shouldn't bother using it at all.

Pepe LeFrits

Hurrah!

OfflerCrocGod

I agree with skipn_easy let's dump French as a matter let's all dump all languages except English, that by the way, would to me make my YEAR - all these stupid languages are just walls so lets tear them down!!!! POWER TO THE PEOPLE*.

*who speak English and can do amusing tricks.

BKtje

I would assume that the 20 official languages of the EU would be the 20 most used languages. Obviously irish would not be one of them not matter how many irish people you get to sign the petitions.

I would be interested to see a list of languages that have been included as im willing to wager each of them has more native speakers (or speakers in general) than Irish. If you manage to convince me that one of those languages is less spoken then irish then ill be very happy to sign the petition.

Those who are comparing French, german etc to irish remember that you will not be denied a job cos you can't speak irish in ireland (unless a job that requires it obviously) however you could very easily be refused a job in France or germany for not speaking the language. That is why French and german are taught. (but i know most of you know that )

skipn_easy

I'd agree completely. If they're going to choose 20 languages they should be the most used languages. And it shouldn't take anything away from how irish is used in Ireland.

Civilian_Target

Originally posted by Einstürzende

Funny that, when I've been in Wales (several times) I've heard alot more spoken Welsh than I have Irish in this country.

Funny that. You from Dublin? Well, then it's like hearing Welsh spoken in London, there are relatively few Irish speakers in Dublin. I live in Letterkenny, I go to college in Belfast, I've heard plenty of Irish in Belfast and of course in Donegal too, I hear it spoken on the bus every time I go home. Irish is alive and kicking, especially compared to Welsh. Needless to say, I've signed the petition.

Töpher

Good for you.

skipn_easy

Civilian

What difference will removing Irish from the 20 official languages of the EU make to the irish language in ireland?

sceptre

Here's a newsflash:

Irish has never been an official language of the EU.

Anyone ever notice that official EU documents aren't produced in Irish (and never have been)? Some of the local brochures are printed in Irish by the gang in Molesworth Street but it's never been an official language for publications. That was a decision made by the Irish government in 1972-73, not imposed by the EU.

Conradh na Gaeilge are trying to get Irish designated as an official language, not trying to get the EU to retain Irish as an official language (read the page posted carefully).

The current official languages for publication are English, German, French, Spanish, (standard) Italian, Danish, Dutch/Flemish, Portuguese, Finnish, Swedish and Greek. Not being on this list (Catalan, Basque, Scots-Gaelic, Welsh anyone?) doesn't mean that the EU doesn't recognise the existence of the language or anything else - it just doesn't publish documentation in languages other than the ones on the list. The issue is communication, not recognition.

So the debate is whether directives etc should be published in Irish or not. And the people to campaign to are the Dail members - it's the individual country's legislature that decides whether any individual language spoken in that country will be recognised as an official EU language - which is only fair, as that country will be paying for the translators and interpreters to translate into that language (total bill for translation in the EU is over 650 million euros annually)

You might as well be completely aware of what you're arguing about:)

Mossy Monk

more EU bull****. if only they keep their mouths shut. what's the need for an official language list in the EU anyway?

have they finalised the banning of fry ups for truckers yet? that was another thing they were playing with :rolleyes:

luckat

The EU has, generally, a really good and helpful policy on minority languages and endangered languages; the fact that it won't be one of the "official languages" probably - I don't know, but probably - just means that all documents won't have to be translated into Irish.

As for whether we should speak it, that's up to individuals. I'll be weeping with gratitude if anyone wants to speak Irish to me, and will very happily speak Irish with anyone who does.

And as for whether it should be taught in school; well, all I can say is that almost anyone I know who went to a Gaelscoil picks up other languages like fluff.

The problem (in my view) with the teaching of Irish is not that it's taught or not taught; it's that it's taught without love.

For instance, a teacher in a school where friends go - a Northern Protestant teacher, as it happens - instituted a Gaeilge Cafe every Friday for an hour, where everyone in her class just drank tea and coffee and ate cakes and spoke Irish. The interest, liking and fluency zoomed upwards, and every kid in that class *wanted* to learn Irish from then on.

TomTom

Originally posted by Civilian_Target
Funny that. You from Dublin? Well, then it's like hearing Welsh spoken in London, there are relatively few Irish speakers in Dublin. I live in Letterkenny, I go to college in Belfast, I've heard plenty of Irish in Belfast and of course in Donegal too, I hear it spoken on the bus every time I go home. Irish is alive and kicking, especially compared to Welsh. Needless to say, I've signed the petition.

A barman over here in vietnam was able to say hello goodbye and several different phrases in irish (he was vietnamise). The language is recognised as far as i can see as being our national language but the majority of the world. One or two people even inquired why we spoke english as they presumed we all spoke irish. The fact the the eu is not adopting it as an official language is trivia in my opinion.

Havelock

I (being half French and half Irish) take alot of pride in my Irish, I'm nowear near as fluent in Irish (D1 in the leaving) as French. But it is equally as important to me as my French. Its part of my cultural identy.

Imposter

Another point although not entirely relevant is that Irish is on the current EU driving licences. I'm not sure about the other minority languages but I don't think any of them are there.

BuffyBot

its not saying that irish will not be the official language of ireland just that it won't be an official language of the EU big deal

Indeed. Big wow, the EU won't be publishing documents in Irish, that's about it. It has no effect on the use of Irish within Ireland or it's status in the constitution.

L4

Fair play to the EU. It's about time we waved goodbye to this ancient jibber jabber.
If people want to speak it, then that's their own problem, the rest of us shouldn't have to be forced to learn this pointless language as children. If people want to speak Oirish to cling onto the past well then fair enough, there's nothing the Government can do about it.
It's typical of this country, we are trying to hold onto as much of our past as possible. Hell, why don't we just move to a cottage in Connomara and raise pigs in our front rooms. It's the 21st century.

Matt Simis

Originally posted by L4
Fair play to the EU. It's about time we waved goodbye to this ancient jibber jabber.
If people want to speak it, then that's their own problem, the rest of us shouldn't have to be forced to learn this pointless language as children. If people want to speak Oirish to cling onto the past well then fair enough, there's nothing the Government can do about it.
It's typical of this country, we are trying to hold onto as much of our past as possible. Hell, why don't we just move to a cottage in Connomara and raise pigs in our front rooms. It's the 21st century.

While I agree, you should aso read what sceptre posted above, Irish was never on the list of 11 languages of the EU. They arent "dropping" or "taking away" the language (as the petition implies).

I rose a few eyebrows in work by replying to a mail sent round with less than positive things to say about this petition. Afaik, millions of people speak Basque and Catalan as their primary language. They wont be recognised either. These people have a valid reason for a petition, we dont.


Matt

Mewzel

Originally posted by Civilian_Target
Funny that. You from Dublin? Well, then it's like hearing Welsh spoken in London, there are relatively few Irish speakers in Dublin.

i dont think that's a very logical comparison. dublin is the capital of ireland, london aint the capital of wales! there would yes, be very little chance of hearing a welsh conversation in london. probably as little as hearing an irish conversation in london actually :rolleyes:

L4

I agree Matt.

Capt'n Midnight

So you need 380,000 people to have an official language...

Sardinia, several distinct dialects of Sardo have more than 380,000 speakers. The south was under arab control, the east was under catalan / aragon, the north under piedmont etc. so the diversity is greater than all the dialects of English.

In the rest of Italy - 150 years ago only 2% spoke what we call Italian (Tuscan). Most of the other 98% still have local dialects. In the north there are French and German speakers - but it's a bit like Provencal and the other is not "hoch deustch" (SP)

Spain - in addition to Castellian there's Basque / Catalan / and I can't spell the language they use in the North West..

How about indo-european - a lot of reserach into phrenology etc needed. So in the mean time could have 5 different languages - one from each family - Celtic, Romance Languages, Germanic, Finish/Hungarian and Basque.

vinnyfitz

What Sceptre said.

This is not a case of "EU to remove Irish as offical European Language"

There is absolutely no change in the status of the Irish language being planned or negotiated.

Irish never had the status that the email quoted in the first post implies. It was a deliberate decision of Paddy Hillery (then Foreign Minister) when negotiating accession in 1972 not to insist on this status for Irish. Now we can argue about whether he was right or not but it would be tough for our negotiators to argue for enhanced status for Irish at this stage given we have struggled through without it for the first 30 years of membership.

seamus

Originally posted by sceptre
Here's a newsflash:

Irish has never been an official language of the EU.

Heh. It did strike me as weird that the shock revelation was it was being removed as a language.

Nothing is changing people...Irish has never been, and probably never will be an officially recognised language of the EU.

So Maltese only has 380,000 speakers? Don't forget the fact that Malta has a population of less than 500,000. Most Maltese people speak Maltese. Most Irish people speak English. Most Welsh people speak English.

You can use facts to prove anything isn't a joke, it's a truth that groups use to twist data and statistics to get it to say whatever they want.

You need to look beyond the spin...