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Leinster Team Talk Thread (Love you Furlong time)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    This is an outright silly take on things.

    I was one of the people who thinks we needed some change in the coaching box, but anyone who is "happy" to see the back of Cullen has a higher level of confidence than I do about how easily sustainable this stuff is.

    The grass absolutely isn't always greener. It will be no easy thing replacing him at all, and if they get the replacement decision wrong, it will have a monumental impact on both Leinster & Irish rugby.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    This is every bit as bizarre a take as saying "good riddance" to him.

    Cullen is a professional and they full well know that. If they have decided to not give him a new contract (which is very different from pushing him out) then they are doing him a massive favour by telling him now, rather than trying to conduct a coaching search behind his back. And kicking him out immediately would gain them absolutely nothing whatsoever - what are they going to do put JN in charge?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    I didn't propose the the media should act as mouthpieces for anyone, although it's incredibly naive to accept that the media aren't used as mouthpieces by publishing 'news' that they are fed by communications directors & pr agencies. The Indo's sole wish was to publish before any other media outlet, and if that fecked Leo or Leinster’s negotiations with other coachs, then that's tough.

    I'm a Leinster supporter and would have preferred that people making life altering changes should be able to do so in their own manner, not in the wake of some red top journalist serving the 'public interest'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,105 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    This is every bit as bizarre a take as saying "good riddance" to him.

    It's not bizarre. Saying that a guy is unlikely to give it his all for a full year knowing he's getting the chop is not bizarre, it's acknowledging human nature, and to be honest there's no need to be so confrontational about it. Just disagree with me and lay out your reasons for it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I did lay out my reasons.

    His contract ends after the season. He was either going into the season not knowing if it would be extended or finding out it wouldn't be a few months in. Under neither circumstance would it make more sense to just fire him on the spot.

    Nor am I being confrontational. Several people are claiming if they wanted to "get rid of him" they would kick him out the door tomorrow and that makes no sense. There is no one in place to take over. This is an orderly transition to a new coaching team. Your proposition is that either Cullen would choose not to continue on or Leinster would have to kick him out on the spot - it is a false dichotomy.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, but there is a difference in playing out the string for a final season if it's a situation where Leinster have decided to move him on (tell him they aren't renewing his deal) or he's decided the time is right to move on.

    If it's the latter - there's no reason to believe he's going to be disgruntled, or frustrated or anything like that, and maybe there's even a possibility of using the "final season" as something to motivate the team etc.

    If it's the former, and they've told him they're moving him on, then there is every reason to assume he might be disgruntled, frustrated and sulking about it, and none of that sounds like the sort of mentality you want your head coach carrying into a new season.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah, but there is a difference in playing out the string for a final season if it's a situation where Leinster have decided to move him on (tell him they aren't renewing his deal) or he's decided the time is right to move on.

    Of course there is a difference, but I don't see the material result of him coaching out the season being different either way. The hypothesis that the only alternative to Cullen having told them he isn't staying is Leinster firing him immediately is not supported by anything.

    The alternative is not having a head coach? You are preposing an impossible situation (albeit the same one that led to Cullen getting his job in the first place).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,810 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    What skillset are we looking to fill, or replace, when Cullen leaves?

    Seems fairly accepted that Cullen plays a significant Director of Rugby type role. But he's also our Head Coach. Is asking someone to do both roles a good idea?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Do you accept the premise that if he wanted to stay but Leinster / the IRFU have decided to move him on then it is highly likely he would be frustrated, resentful and possibly bitter about it all?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Somewhat yes, I don't think it would be "highly likely" but I think it would be possible. I think he is a consummate professional and would see their side of it tbh (and given his penchant for short term contracts, couldn't have much cause for complaint either).

    I don't think that is proof that he wanted to leave. I stand by being open to any scenario, but largely assuming it was a conversation where they all agreed this was for the best.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,721 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Think the Province ought to formalise a GM type role for a Director, separate from the Head Coach. No idea why Nucifora was against that for Cullen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Whatever happened, this was on the cards since FEB/MARCH.

    (That would also tie in with the timeline of Leo further unraveling in the media.)

    MARCH 2019 - Signs 2 year contract ending 20/21.

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/2019/03/14/cullen-and-lancaster-sign-new-contracts-to-stay-at-leinsters-helm

    MARCH 2021 - Signs 1 year contract ending 21/22.

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/2021/03/16/cullen-extends-leinster-tenure-as-coaching-quartet-are-retained

    FEB 2022 - Signs another 1-year contract extension ending 22/23.

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/2022/02/16/cullen-extends-leinster-contract

    FEB 2023 - Signs 2 year contract until ending 25/26.

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/2023/02/27/leo-cullen-signs-two-year-deal-to-stay-at-leinster-rugby

    NOV 2024 - Signs a further contract extension ending 26/27.

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/2024/11/20/cullen-signs-new-contract-with-leinster-rugby

    The "we have begun the process to recruit our new head coach…" is past tense!

    "I want to thank the Leinster Professional Game Board, in particular Shane Nolan, Guy Easterby, and Frank Doherty, for their support throughout this process and indeed during my time as Leinster head coach.

    "And to my family, friends, and all Leinster supporters a huge thanks also."

    https://www.irishrugby.ie/news/cullen-leave-leinster-end-next-season

    "This process"?

    Interesting that Cullen didn't thank the IRFU, nor was there a quote from the IRFU Performance Director. Unlike what happened in the other announcements.

    Lets just say I wouldn't be shocked if the IRFU had a very big say in all of this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭letsbefair


    I don't think Leo will be short of alternative opportunities given his vast knowledge of the game and the role he has played in developing world class players. My guess he will be snapped up by one of the international teams in an Nucifora type role.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,721 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Would he have much value in that respect though? Leinster's set up is fairly unique, as is oft argued here. There's not going to be similar pipelines available for other teams.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Whatever the backroom politics Leo has done a fine job in Leinster, even if he probably should have moved upstairs to a formal DOR role and off the coaching ticket years ago. Much of the credit people give him seems to be around alignment and development and he probably knows more than anyone about the development path for players from youth through to the test team. it seems obvious to me that that is a key role in Leinster over the next few years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭letsbefair


    I was talking about countries and setting up and developing pipelines. He has a wealth of knowledge. It will be interesting to see what he decides to do. The money is in France, 12 months is time to learn the language!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,355 ✭✭✭✭Heroditas




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,405 ✭✭✭Paddy_Mag


    A lot depends on kids ages? Moving them at this stage might not be on Leo's agenda. He might want away from the day to day of Pro club Rugby



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,387 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Leo has never coached in a country where the clubs/provinces aren't part of the same body as the international team. I don't know that anyone would be keen to pay him to facilitate it outside the island of Ireland. He's very simply never dealt with the financial or inter-body bargaining.

    Post edited by Paul Smeenus on


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,447 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    what actual experience does he have in that? i dont see how he would go into such a role ala conor o shea in italy who has lot more experience in that kind of role. leo doesnt really. he was always pro team environment and certainly not setting up/developing pathways



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,602 ✭✭✭mr_edge_to_you


    Agreed. There's every chance he has something lined up and it's as much him moving on to something new as much as Leinster themselves.

    There is going to the biggest most expensive game of musical chairs over the next few months in rugby management with a raft of vacancies arising after RWC27.

    At the highest level and in reality its a very small cohort. The IRFU probably triggered the start of it with the Andy Farrell announcement. Theres Tony Brown moving to NZ after the world cup too.

    Whatever happens, Leo deserves every good fortune that comes his way.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,105 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Again, your argument is that effectively making a guy serve out a one year notice period won’t impact performance. I’ve done one-month notice periods and been completely checked out after two weeks. It’s not bizarre to suggest that Leo might be human.

    Humans also like to be right. It’s entirely possible that some people have been crying out for Leo to be sacked for so long that they can’t imagine him being allowed to go on his own terms. Now that’s bizarre. But here we are.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 34,009 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    No my argument is that if you plan to move on from him you have the choice of either a) finding a coach in one month or b) letting him know before the pointy end of the season anyway. If Leinster planned, or were strongly inclined, to not renew him it is in everyone's best interests to tell him now and to spend a season finding a replacement anyway as getting in some emergency coach for a year is hardly going to be an improvement.

    I can easily imagine him going on his own terms and have said so repeatedly. For some reason some people can not imagine a scenario where Leinster suggested they might not renew him but didn't fire him on the spot.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 18,723 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatFromHue


    That's a possibility. It's also possible that he'll want to go out on a high and do the double.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭letsbefair


    Leo will not check out, he will give his all. As a player and manager he always has done. You heard what Caelan Doris said, the players will want him to leave on a high.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭letsbefair


    Imagine the craic if ROG gets the job, he's one of the favourites along with Scott Robertson.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,770 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Leinster is a tricky one for ROG. In LAR he built a team around a plan and did it really well through a kind of moneyball approach, not the greatest or most expensive but players who could deliver a particular style of play. Very difficult to get right and he pulled it off. That’s not an available option in Leinster, you get your academy products and the odd addition. It’s cutting your cloth to measure rather than buying cloth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,492 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Gerry Thornley is very clear on this:

    -Cullen had already told Leinster and the IRFU of his desire to step aside after one more year before last Friday’s final

    -Regardless of the result last week, Cullen could have stayed on longer had he so desired.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,012 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    That may well be the case, but that line from GT needs a little more context.

    Firstly, its GT! So a pinch of salt. Secondly, its potentially only 1 side of the story.

    Retaining that title last Friday night at Croke Park with their 36-7 win over the Bulls had no bearing on Cullen’s decision. He had already informed Leinster and the IRFU of his desire to step down after one more year. In fact, regardless of that result, Cullen could have stayed on longer had he so desired.

    So we know it was before Friday.

    But When? And How?

    Was it at the negotiating table?

    Did Leinster say 'we want you to stay, if you like' and the IRFU said 'well….maybe, but….'?

    I would say relationships arent rosy between Leinster and the IRFU at the moment and would think there is a lot more than one side to this story.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    To be honest I don't think it does need more context.

    Regardless of a journos personal leanings a head coach being let go will always be a more engaging story than a head coach choosing to leave.

    Thornley sounds like he has a decent insight to the story. If there was more to it regarding Leo potentially being pushed then there is no doubt he would have at least alluded to it



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