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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed (Threadbans in OP)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭csirl


    People are getting too hung up on the mechanics of a brief introduction as if its some sort of gotcha moment. Its irrelevent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,037 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    You're not wrong!

    However at the actual time of the murder, the clothing may well have been touched by….

    the doctor who confirmed death

    the priest who gave last rites

    the Guard who came to the scene

    other detectives who took part in the investigation

    Dr Harbison who did the post-mortem

    possibly a technician at the mortuary? (Somebody must have removed the clothes and packed them away)

    Probably other police officers, handlers and for example, fingerprint technicians etc

    the French police who also re-opened an investigation….

    and, of course, quite possibly the murderer who committed the crime.

    *********

    So if the latest cold-case review has managed to get DNA using M-Vac techniques, of possibly 5 different persons, then they must work through all those listed above in order to rule them out. And a lot of them are dead.

    So they may be trying to get confirmation of DNA by getting samples from members of their families….(I'm guessing here)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭csirl


    Why does it matter. How many of us can remember someone we got a brief intro to even a few days later?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    There is no proof he met her- ergo no proof he lied- stop making things up to fit your narrative that he’s a murderer- it’s putting the thread way off



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Bailey was seemingly discreet now, I'm sure you really believe that @tibruit

    He was both a buffoon and a mastermind, exuberant but discreet, bare hand scratches with gloves on, washing boots with no blood. Ingrained in their memory, from the moment…. of 3 1/2 years after the fact as per Leo's claimed interaction, and then recalled another 10 years hence. Great memory it seems.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    It matters because it shows Bailey needed to put distance between himself and Sophie after the murder. That`s the behaviour of someone guilty, not someone who is innocent. It also matters because there are conspiracy theorists frequenting these threads for years making all sorts of ridiculous allegations about Bolger, Lyons, the Gardaí and even a judge in relation to this specific encounter between Bailey and Sophie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    If there was a relationship he would have been discreet. Jules Thomas was roof over his head.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    How does shaking, or not shaking her hand create any bit of difference?

    If anything shaking her hand would imply that it was the first time he had ever met her, whereas not shaking her hand would indicate that he already knew her. Lyons placing this meeting in 1995 doesn't give much time for any rendezvous since she only visited perhaps a couple of times after that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,060 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Alfie was part of the conversation when Bailey said "only to see around" If he had introduced them a year or two previously Alfie would have said so then. Oh, maybe he was aware of this illicit relationship and was being discreet.

    Bannasidhe's recall;

    "I wrote it down in late '96 to keep it fresh in my memory in anticipation of giving a statement. I dug it out again when the French started their investigation and tbh half expected a call. I am now a historian by profession so used to keeping written records, and remembering what they say in good detail. A vital skill in lecturing, nothing more boring then a lecturer who has to keep referring to their notes."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    You think that Bailey having a years long affair (of some sort) such that it required a level of discretion neither of them displayed before or since (Sophie was introducing Bruno to all the neighbors remember), which neither partners ever became aware of, nor the gardai, family nor friends were not aware even after she died (except for one person with a vague memory 20 years later).

    Neither her nor Bailey, despite extensive notes and writings which were investigated to the nth degree ever wrote about it. Nobody ever saw them together, or even heard hearsay about it. Nobody ever even knew that they knew each other, despite hundreds of witnesses and more calling in about what they knew.

    You believe all that is possible, and yet you call people who believe he probably didn't shake her hand, but still met her/talked to her, conspiracy theorists. If that is a conspiracy theory, then what you believe is absolute fantasy land stuff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 322 ✭✭Zola1000


    You still do things suit your narrative.

    So again I'll ask you. Where is there any proof he met her. When did they meet again after the first time.. Like you know strike up conversation.. A chance for second or third meeting.. To chat about arts culture.. Was this not narrative people have on Bailey... How would Bailey know she hadnt people staying with.. One car.. But could be few people staying there. She went to shops.. By herself but could have been buying for few people staying with her.. How are you covering all angles Bailey knew she was on her own at that specific time…on that morning. Did he travel previous few nights and seen there was limited activity or nobody around or it looked like she was alone.. The net is still very small for those to know she was alone…woukd you agree?,

    On night in question if we believe a general narrative she answered door.. How would Bailey have known there was nobody else in house on that night.. If he didn't know her well.. The killer it seems did not reenter the property.. How would they know.. Someone wasn't hiding in wardrobe in fear of their life.. Who would then dial house phone to call for backup or emergency assistance…

    What about Karl Wonly… did he meet Sophie. We don't know.. Similar to Bailey.. Location.. Drinker etc....he lived much closer by. He could have walked much easier.. Like have you Evidence Where are you going to get evidence to cover all the angles of unknown..because he said she said.. Im 90% sure as good as it sounds, is still 10% unsure. Why would you not say im 99% sure…

    I don't buy Bailey by Chance seen her of Saturday and thought.. I'll chance her house on Sunday.. Sure what about thinking if house alarm went off.. Did he know she had no house alarm.. Or what if a male friend answered the door on night.. Someone had to know her well.. for that to happen.. It be someone say chatting with Alfie and for him say.. Mg neighbour is travelling over fir Christmas she will be by herself.. Do you have evidence of such conversation..

    The real clue that always strikes me from this angle of conversation and I don't know why but it was first time she travelled alone in all times she has come to Ireland and we have true evidence of trying to reach a number of people prior to leaving France to join her.. To me that reveals a strong element to this murder.

    Post edited by Zola1000 on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    How do you know it is a lie? How do you know that Alfie wasn't simply mistaken due to his apparent poor memory as stated here?

    "Alfie wasn't 100% sure if he had introduced them in '95 when IB was doing some gardening work for him. Which would be fairly typical of AlfieHe also couldn't remember if he had invited Bailey, whom Shirley obviously disliked."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭almostover


    Your final sentence is the telling one. It's highly likely that this case will remain unsolved. The Garda mismanagement of the investigation is to blame for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “The real clue that always strikes me from this angle of conversation and I don't know why but it was first time she travelled alone in all times she has come to Ireland and we have true evidence of trying to reach a number of people prior to leaving France to join her.. To me that reveals a strong element to this murder.”

    It’s certainly an unknown entity sure. I guess though it could be explained given the time of year- Christmas is traditionally a very busy time for people in the run up to the 25th- I’m not sure if I were her friend that I’d like a trip to dreary South Ireland for a stay in a cold cottage when I’ve a million different things to do.

    Do we know was her trip “necessary”? Ie could she have paid the housekeeper and plumber by bank transfer ? (Not the easiest thing back then- SEPA payments were still many years away and I imagine they would have wanted cash)

    Whilst she asked a number of people to join her, she ultimately went alone- that’s not a sign that she wanted solace- quite the opposite. Maybe she then took it as an opportunity to take some time out herself.
    If you had the heating issue on your mind and you wanted it sorted for longer stays and you needed to pay people, then yes, a short trip, even before Christmas, made some sense. Given it was winter, she naturally wanted some company - but still felt she had to go to sort these issues even if there were no takers.

    Was it a planned killing “from France”? I’m not sure there was enough time to plan such an act. The pre-meditation would need to have been in place prior to that and then play a waiting game for the opportunity. I’m not convinced “France” was involved- but the behaviour of the husband post murder didn’t do anything for his reputation either.

    As we’ve seen from recent events in other unsolved murders, just because Gardai follow a particular line of enquiry for years, doesn’t mean they can’t switch to an alternative theory- Annie McCarrick murder investigation being a prime recent example.

    The challenge with this case now though, is that most of the people who did know and meet Sophie, and who demonstrated behaviour that could be classed as “oddball” to say the least, are long dead.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,409 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I agree with your post. Sophies traveling alone just before christmas is very odd. Was she trying to run away from an issue in France and thought she was in safety in Cork. She really needed to go whatever her motivation for travelling was. Christmas eve is a big family gathering day in France and she was missing out on this even though she seemed to be close to her family ( I exclude Daniel when I refer to her family).

    As regards Baileys contact with Sophie. In 1996 the internet and mobile phones were relatively new. Few people had access to mobiles and using the internet was an impossibility for most. If they had been introduced he would have had no means to contact her in France or even research who she was. In 1996 getting in contact with a stranger in another country would have been very difficult.

    As regards Bailey striking up a relationship with Sophie in Ireland it wouldn't have been possible as Sophie never travelled alone before.

    In addition to the above Sophie didn't have good English. She was relatively unknown in Cork - she was just a French woman who visits a few times a year. As regards Bailey being attracted by her 'art' - again I don't think anyone in west cork new anything about her work and it would have been difficult to research her at that time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭csirl


    I disagree. Whether or not he had one, two or even three very brief forgettable intros to her is completely irrelevent and does not indicate that he "knew" her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,409 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Can you tell us how this relationship started?

    She never travelled to Cork alone before so would have had no time to be alone together.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "If he had introduced them a year or two previously Alfie would have said so then."

    I don`t agree. I think the "to see around " comment fits comfortably with a single introduction and seeing her out and about a few times over the course of a couple of years.

    "I wrote it down in late `96 to keep it fresh in my memory."

    Cast iron then. Remember that unnamed woman who said that Shirley told her that at 3am on the night of the murder that she heard Bailey`s knock on her door? Didn`t she say that she wrote it down too? Cast iron standard for her recall too then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I`ve always been quite specific in saying that he denied "meeting" her rather than knowing her. Bolger claimed that Bailey had a bee in his bonnet to meet her and show her his writing. I doubt then that Bailey could have forgotten the introduction. An innocent man wouldn`t have lied about it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Can you tell us how this relationship started?"

    No. I don`t believe it started. I just threw it out there yesterday as a possibility.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    The same 3am that Farrell said she saw Bailey at Kealfadda Bridge? He can teleport now?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,060 ✭✭✭chooseusername


     ftfy

    "I don`t agree. I think the "to see around " comment fits comfortably with a single introduction and seeing her out and about a few times over the course of a couple of years."

    Bailey's "Distinctive knock" at 3am has been dismissed by Shirley as rubbish, written down or not.

    What part of Bannasidhe's original post do you have difficulty with?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    On balance I suspect that Farrell was tucked up in bed with her hot water bottle on the night in question.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I have no issue with anything she said, only your interpretation of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,060 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I gave my interpretation of the Bailey remark to Bannasidhe in #14461 and #14480



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,959 ✭✭✭csirl


    He may have forgotten - most of us forget casual intros quite quickly.

    What you say about Bolger doesnt make sense. How would IB even know she would have any interest in poetry given the briefness of any of the claimed intros. Also bear in mind that STDF had poor english, so would struggle to understand an english language poem, yet alone have a discussion over it. This story fails the common sense test.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,633 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It also beggars belief Leo remembers it in such detail more than Alfie or Bailey. And no record of him mentioning it when Bailey became a suspect.

    Leo's account of what he did on the day the body was found has discrepancies but we are expected to believe he remembers a then inconsequential brief meeting a few years back.

    This is from someone convicted of running a sophosticated drugs operation.

    Nope.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,409 ✭✭✭Deeec




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