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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    these schools have plenty of resources to put towards sport because the state pays teachers salaries so fees tend to go towards smaller classes and teaching/extra curricular resources, like sport.

    This is true of every private school in the country - c. 50 schools.

    But, having gone to one of these schools, you should understand that for many of them, and parents/alumni, jct/sct is an arms race and their ambitions towards it are almost purely cultural and abstract. It is a shared culture to prioritise rugby which is the social glue that allows these schools to express class solidarity.

    Beyond the absolutely bizarre tangent on expressing class solidarity - the rest of this is making exactly the point I'm making about the culture and significance of rugby in these schools; of how important it is families etc. It's no different to Kilkenny hurling or Kerry gaelic football; this is a bigger factor than just the simplistic cop out of money.

    There are probably 10 schools in that basket, they produce a lot of rugby players, and also business men, barristers, etc.

    I genuinely have no idea what people think the relevance of this is to the production of professional rugby players.

    What Leinster Rugby do incredibly well, and up until now, materially better than the other three provinces, is the level of support and coaching they do around the province, their talent identification, their underage structures and, most of all, the material level of improvement of players after they join the Leinster Academy. Guys like Hugo Keenan, Josh van der Flier, Tom Clarkson, Joe McCarthy are all prime examples of this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Facilities is obviously where it’s going. Which, like I’ve said, is necessary but not sufficient. But let’s not overlook the necessary part.

    And scale is also a factor.

    For example, would you say the quality of the Leinster schools competition or Munster schools competition is higher across the board?

    I think we know the answer. So that, in turn, is something that benefits the Blackrock players; playing against a higher calibre and concentration of opponents and improving in the process, independent from their internal investment and culture.

    It’s something that Munster cannot replicate to the same degree.

    So instead, they are investing money in Centres of excellence. One has opened in Cork, and there are plans for one in Limerick as far as I’m aware. There are also regional development centres and hubs opening.

    These are all good developments that will get the best young players playing together, from an earlier age, and improving at a quicker rate than they otherwise would, while also allowing Munster to cast the net a little bit wider than they otherwise would.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,988 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Its more his development chances in the centre, and Ringrose also hasnt helped his chances either.

    Prior to 6N it wasnt a linear path for Osborne in the centre (e.g. ALL at 15 this season and ALL OVER the place last season).

    Im sure you know how difficult it is to transition from FB to Centre.

    And much like allot of the Leinster backs, not just Osborne, they have also been pretty poor in patches.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    You don't think he was making the call of starting what was at that point the incumbent 10?

    I don't think, after the AIs, that it was a particularly big call to make. I equally wouldn't have thought much of him making the opposite call.

    I think Easterby knew what Farrell wanted and I'm sure that may have played a part, but I also believe Farrell had literally zero contact with him about it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    The scale, quality and competitiveness of the competition though, which I would grant you is a factor, has nothing to do with money. It's just there are a higher number of schools which take rugby really seriously in Leinster.

    The facilities are good - but there are lots of schools out there with great facilities producing **** all rugby players.

    Bandon Grammar is a great example, a good coach rocks up, Regis Sonnes, with a bit of passion for it and imparts that to the players, gets some buy in from them, and all of a sudden you've got a place way out in West Cork producing elite rugby players. It wasn't money that did it there, it was someone who could come along and change the culture and get lads to devote to it.

    So instead, they are investing money in Centres of excellence. One has opened in Cork, and there are plans for one in Limerick as far as I’m aware. There are also regional development centres and hubs opening.

    These are all good developments that will get the best young players playing together, from an earlier age, and improving at a quicker rate than they otherwise would, while also allowing Munster to cast the net a little bit wider than they otherwise would.

    Fwiw - I agree with all of this, think it sounds like absolutely the right approach, and would hope it starts to pay dividends. I just think it's something they should arguably have maybe recognised and taken some steps on sooner, but you can't fix that now.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    His selections at 15 weren't because of Garry Ringrose or Rieko Ioane though, it was because Hugo Keenan was injured.

    Since Keenan has returned, Osborne has played almost exclusively at centre for Leinster. I still think it's his best position, but I also think he hasn't yet made a strong case there for why he should be Ireland's 12 heading into a RWC, and I think the latter is on him. He's getting the chances there, in big games, he's just not delivering.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I was talking about the previous AI games, in response to FTD mentioning they weren’t Farrell’s selections in the 24/25 season.

    But I think you’re right, Easterby was only in place for the 6 Nations?

    The fact he stayed with Farrell’s incumbents is exactly the broader point I was making.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,942 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yes Farrell was in place in the AIs.

    I am sceptical Easterby would have made that call were he in place for the AIs but that's not really relevant - I don't think SP starting in the 6N is evidence of Farrell controlling the decisions. I am fairly certain he deliberately kept at arms reach (it would be ethically questionable if he did anything else).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,997 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    All this questioning of Farrell's decisions is ridiculous. We've two six nations championships in the last three seasons. We've beaten all the home Nations in four of the last five seasons.

    What does the man have to achieve with a tiny country?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭OldRio


    You Moving the goal posts. Again you know that but won't admit it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,327 ✭✭✭TRC10




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    The scale, quality and competitiveness of the competition though, which I would grant you is a factor, has nothing to do with money. It's just there are a higher number of schools which take rugby really seriously in Leinster.

    Which is all well and good… for Leinster.

    But if - as we’ve established - the scale, quality and competitiveness is not replicable to the same degree in Munster, how do you suggest they bridge that gap?

    I’ve touched on the Centres of Excellence and regional development hubs. I also think it’d be beneficial to appoint more regional development officers.

    You’ve said it all sounds like the right approach.

    But all of that requires….?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, it obviously needs money, but hardly an insurmountable funding challenge surely?

    We’re moving the point away here a bit from the original argument. My pointy was that people kept making the “money” argument for why Leinster schools are so good at producing pro calibre rugby players, and it now seems you’re broadly agreeing with the argument that there are a lot more moving parts to it than just that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Correct, it’s not an insurmountable funding challenge. 40% of the Central Contracts split across the other 3 provinces should be sufficient.

    Of course there are more moving parts, I’ve never said the difference is exclusively money. But it clearly is a requisite factor.

    But the point here is, you’ve been arguing the difference isn’t money, as a reason that the 40% on Central Contracts isn’t required.

    But if the thing that (you think) is the difference is something that cannot be replicated to the same degree, how to you bridge that gap without money?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    For someone who's only 21 I'd say he's played exactly as you would expect someone of his age to play.

    I've always maintained he has a high floor rather than a high ceiling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,756 ✭✭✭ersatz


    There's literally a comedy industry growing uo around how in Dublin rugby and money are synonymous. How you can think that the most elite schools in Ireland are also the schools most closely associated with rugby, but the two have nothing to do with each other is baffling and a case of willful blindness. Only two of these schools (out of 15 odd) are on the Northside ffs, while there are 5 or 6 between Dublin 4 and 6.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,070 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    Yeah they haven't experimented at centre, but it's not like fans appreciate when they do give players a decent run to build depth. Just look at the last example of giving a player gametime to build depth. Sam Prendergast.

    Giving Sam the run in 2025 was even framed as giving him experience so he and Crowley could fight it out in a relatively equal footing. But the fan reaction wasn't to wait and see. It was game by game reactionary outrage. So calling for experimentation is fine, but fans won't reward it unless the experimental player is already an appreciable improvement (and then it's not an experiment)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    anyone having firm views of 20-24 year olds is very likely to be wrong. Aged 25 and I think you can have high confidence on expectations and assessing the quality of a player. Judging the younger guys with confidence is naive at best. I see it all the time on Boards. Tommy O’Brien for many was a basket case without any chance of being a regular starter now he’s player of the year for Leinster. Youth deserves a chance and being given the benefit of the doubt. Very few of our superstars today were obvious in their early 20’s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    Thats some gymnastics to try and down play Lowe

    I never said he was Ireland best player, ffs or not

    I said would Ireland have a better or worse chance to win the 6 nations and World Cup without him? If you can't agree that it is worse without him then that's your opinion but not sure what it is based on

    I never said Farrell was completely dependent on a 34 winger to be successful

    Not sure what the point of the rant is

    I think someone else already answered why he didn't make the European final, any decent rugby fan would know why he missed it, don't even have to be Irish to understand that one



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    I will change the image but its still the same sentiment

    image.png


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    Tommy is 28

    He was always an incredible player with any fans I talked to, he just kept getting injuries. Not sure why you say he was a basket case?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    It takes time and effort more so, there aren’t necessarily short term easy fixes for it (like Munster always seem to be looking for).

    The sort of stuff you’re describing here is basic levels of player development stuff, and the sort of stuff Munster should be funding from their own budget.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 891 ✭✭✭darkened_scrum


    You're absurdly dishonest. He had been out injured for about 3 months, that is why he didn't make the 23 for the final. Stop being so ridiculous.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,699 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    basket case is a poor choice of phrase. He was written off as too injury prone by many / most , and then….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,456 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Oh well if there’s a comedy industry (and is there actually btw?!) then it must be true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,997 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You’ve literally agreed that the way Munster are looking to introduce long term fixes:

    sounds absolutely like the right approach”.

    Yet, what, 3 posts later?

    Munster always seem to be looking for [short term easy fixes]

    🙄

    When you’ve previously defeated your own argument, but still do an about turn just because you want to take a swipe at Munster, I think that’s the point I’m out…

    Post edited by aloooof on


  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,403 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    What actually happened that led to James Lowe's exit from Irish rugby? https://the42.ie/7069195



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭50HX




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