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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,379 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Also - quick question, so I'm clear.

    The women's game being "at the bottom" - that's nothing to do with Nucifora? Every setback or problem or even bad decision made by Humphreys is his fault, but Nucifora overseeing the destruction of the women's game is what?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,477 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    So why has Humphreys been a disaster?

    People complain about the 7s, but is 7s not dying on its feet? Did the IRFU not jump before the whole thing collapsed?

    Ireland just finished 2nd in the 6Ns and won a Triple Crown, Farrel has just signed a new 4 year deal. Leinster just reached the final of the Champions Cup and are in the final of the URC.

    The Women's Team are improving, Connacht are getting stronger. The U20s are going really well this year.

    Why has Humphreys been a disaster?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,997 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    $750k is a pretty average wage over there for international players.

    We'll put it in Euro, Barrett is on around €850k, Lowe will get around €650k.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    How does the “Central IRFU” make its money?

    Via ticket sales, tv deals and sponsorship. The share of which they’ve been able to command in recent years all directly driven by how successful the team is on the pitch, something which for the best part of a decade or more has been almost entirely attributable to Leinster.

    Constantly trotting out the KPIs is bullshit - by any definition his tenure was a huge success. Multiple 6 Nations wins and Grand Slams, an extended period ranked as the #1 side in the world, successful series wins in New Zealand and Australia, multiple wins over South Africa. Irish people’s expectations of the national team completely changed over this period.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    You've said it yourself

    " The national team pays for every province"

    Which province has shown a return on that?

    And furthermore the IRFU income greatly increases by the national teams success.....which is overwhelming powered by Leinster.

    FWIW I would love to see all provinces doing well , but your post comes across and quite......bitter. You seemingly take great satisfaction in Leinster falling at the final hurdle at the pinnacle of club rugby.

    Each to their own.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Given the contrasting fortunes of Leinster and Ireland in that decade, a fairer conclusion - yet not still one I’d entirely agree with - is that that success is almost entirely attributable to Schmidt and Farrell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    That's an odd take.....so the playing personnel are secondary? Could Ireland have achieved their success with an assortment of random players purely because they were coached by JS and AF?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,870 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    i heard he told back neil back he'd get away with slapping the ball out of stringer's hands



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Of course the playing personnel matter.

    All the playing personnel matter.

    Attributing Ireland’s success as “almost entirely attributable to Leinster” is way over-stating things.

    In the same way that attributing it “almost exclusively” to Farrell or Schmidt is.

    Which is exactly the point I was trying to make.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,379 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Right. And budgeted for a level of success that Nucifora missed. The point in the KPIs is that when Nucifora missed them, we needed to realign budgets. Which might - shock! horror! - mean your favourite slowing winger doesn't get paid for centrally any more.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    The 7s wasn't dying on its feet. They had made huge improvements in a very short period and the 7s program was producing players for the 15s as well. Humphreys came in and slowly killed the program and then it was dying on its feet. Ireland has 4 provinces and it was a valuable option to get players who might have dropped out of the system back into rugby. The so called savings was never confirmed what that was and what happened to the money

    In terms of a disaster, I listed out a lot above. Farrell was hired by Nucifora

    The remains of what Leinster is got to the final, before the last cut Humphreys has had at them, look at the list of exits from Leinster since he took over. Look at the list of exits this season with only Joey coming in, a player that Humphreys didn't want to go to Leinster, he wanted him to go to Ulster

    How many coachs have left provinces since he took over?

    The U20 are going well but he made a total disaster of them with his mate hired in…..

    So you can ignore what I posted before, you can ignore what I have posted now but honeslty as each day goes by he looks more and more like the JohN Delaney of the IRFU, a lot of people thought he was a great lad as well



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,379 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    While that's lovely, you're not who I was responding to. The idea that I come across as bitter but you haven't found that some Leinster fans do is... instructive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Well the fact you ignored most of my post is also instructive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,870 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    the svns world series (or whatever it is called now) is dying on its feet, the irfu have just exited the stage a few years early



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,379 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    I didn't think it amounted to much of a point. Leinster provided most of the players for an international team that earned a level of success that was insufficient to continue operating at the level we were at, and Leinster fans are shocked that their province was not spared any sort ramifications of that.

    I know we can't afford to continue as we were, but we provided most of the players!! Surely we can't be party to the island-wide belt-tightening!

    You can and you will. That's reality.

    Anyway I'm in Belfast and have to travel about this evening, so I have much more important things to be dealing with.

    I'll let you respond with the last word so take your time, make it comprehensive, and since I am unlikely to reply, enjoy yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Jesus christ that is cringe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    Ireland won how many 6 nations when Nucifora was in his role?

    The World Cup is loss making and even if Ireland won it they would still end up with a massive debt at the end of it.

    The provinces are keeping the IRFU alive, without the players coming from the academies and been developed in the provinces they would have no international team.

    The IRFU for years have given millions and millions to all of the provinces to produce players. Now which of those provinces has been the most successful at producing players? would you not then help that province so they can produce more players or just try and hinder them at every turn?

    The only self serving nonsense is coming from yourself, you don't give a shite if Ireland goes backwards because of what Humphreys does, just once Leinster are not one of the top teams in Europe. Like a lot of small minded rugby fans thats all they care about, its never about a bigger picture or what will help Ireland. Its just bitterness towards another province

    Humphreys is an incompetent fool and as I said Lowe is gone, others nearly went as well when he fecked around with contract. POM etc all had the same mess played out in the media.

    I know what is going on in Leinster, they got told by the IRFU to produce loads of playuers for ireland. They did that.

    They got told by the IRFU they had to let some players move to other provinces to bulk those provinces up. They did that

    What was the reward?

    What was the reward for the other provinces who didn't produce players for Ireland even after getting millions for years?

    Humphreys has come in and because he is incompetent he wants to reward incompetence. Give it 10 years when he has wasted millions and millions with little to no return from the other provinces and he has taken Leinster down Im sure you will still be clapping him on the back and telling him he done a great job because now none of the provinces or Ireland are competitive anymore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,757 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Leinster's dominance is very sustained but its sport, things inevitably change and its clear that the number of test players coming from other provinces is rising and will likely continue to. Note too that Munster have won as much silverware in the last 5 years as Leinster have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    Anthony Eddy was responsible for the womens game. He was not very good

    The womens game by the way is more than the 15s game. Like it or loathe it the plan from Nucifora etc was to promote the 7s game and the 15s was not a priority. Was that a wrong decision? looking back it probably was.

    The reason they seemingly done this was because it was easier to get players in 7s rugby because it was a simple game and you could attract runners etc to it. The 15s is more difficult.

    So was the women game destroyed? no the 7s was really strong. The 15s was a mess.

    Is it brillant now? no its not but you seem to think it is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    would you not then help that province so they can produce more players or just try and hinder them at every turn?

    Having a financial counter-weight so that Leinster don’t have 10 fully paid central contracts vs the other provinces 1 is not “hindering them at every turn”.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    I mean you can use 5 years as an arbitrary cut off point of you want , but where does that end? Leinster have won 11 trophies in the last 15 years to Munsters 2.

    I think most reasonable people will concede that Leinster are currently operating at a different level to Munster.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,757 ✭✭✭ersatz


    They are but nothing is forever. Kilkenny were never going to lose an all Ireland and people wanted to carve Dublin into two football teams. The trend is what's obvious. Another way of looking at you stat is that they won something every year for a decade and then stopped.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Agreed, things change.

    But at the moment you cant objectively say that change looks like its coming in the immediate future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    The best players in Ireland get central contracts, the model works. Loads of other countries are copying it

    The problem is 3 out of the 4 provinces forgot their job for years and now its Leinster fault because they done exactly what they got told to do. Develop top quality players.

    Munster for instance spend every year whining about why they can't sign more NIQ's 😂 when they did get a big investment, they went and blew it on two big name NIQ's. Not use the money to develop players or pay off some of the never ending loans they get from the IRFU



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Nobody has yet explained to me why some people seem to think the Central Contract policy is one that that must never be changed.

    And the charges of other provinces whining, at this point are beyond parody….



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,477 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Im talking about 7s as a whole, not just Ireland. The sport is struggling, lots of countries are cutting back or scrapping, not just Ireland. If it is a choice between maintaining a 7s team in a sport that is dying or cutting back on the Women's game or Men's XVs due to financial restraints then there is only one decision to be made.

    Farrell was indeed a Nucifiora hire, Nicufiora didn't renew him last week.

    If I were a Leinster fan I'd be looking at the coaching and management team rather than Humphreys to find out why Leinster have wasted the last years in trying to complete the "drive for 5".

    I'm sure he has made mistakes, Nucifiora made mistakes too and he will likely make more mistakes, but I don't see a crisis in Irish rugby at all. Far from it, I think we remain in relatively rude health.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    If it was such a huge saving then why haven't the IRFU confirmed it?

    Not sure how you can claim Leinster have wasted the last few years, they have got to multiple finals and won the URC last year and could retain it this year. I don't see that as wasted at all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    People are demanding it changes now because their own province has been incompetent and didn't achieve their primary goal of developing lots of players for Ireland

    If it changes and their provinces continues to not produce players should they get more and more money? while other continue to produce players? no they shouldn't

    So Im sure in that case the same people will want another change to the system to suit themselves. The people demanding the changes in the central contracts are just doing it because they think their province might get more money, its not for the good of rugby in Ireland. Self serving nonsense wasn't it some said earlier. Couldn't agree more



  • Administrators Posts: 56,565 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Munster for instance spend every year whining about why they can't sign more NIQ's 😂 when they did get a big investment, they went and blew it on two big name NIQ's

    Do you reckon Leinster would have been able to afford James Lowe's contract if they hadn't splurged the cash on the Jordie Barrett and Reiko Ioane vanity projects the past few years?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,686 ✭✭✭P.Walnuts


    Are they really vanity projects if they secure 2 back to back URC titles?

    And before you say it, I know the incoming final will be very tight.

    FWIW , I personally dont believe Lowe should have been renewed at his current wage. He simply doesnt play enough for Leinster to warrant the outlay



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