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Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

15859606163

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    New Enterprise has battery mode



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,043 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Nice to have however not sure cost v benefit stacks up. Over complicating the spec.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,700 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    An interlocking is the safety critical brains behind railway operations. It started out as mechanical locking to prevent certain actions i.e, if you pull this lever then it prevents another lever from being pulled in conflict. This then led to electro-mechanical actions then electric actions and now electronic actions. You can think of it as a series of conditions. Set the signal proceed if the track circuits are clear and the points are locked in place.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 955 ✭✭✭EarWig


    Irish Rail inability to source key train-control system parts heightens ‘risk of disruption’

    https://www.irishtimes.com/politics/2026/06/08/irish-rail-inability-to-source-key-train-control-system-parts-heightens-risk-of-disruption/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,286 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    Thanks for the information that the €698m includes 15 years of maintenance. I had not seen that mentioned in the press releases.

    That means the €87m per train should be compared to the £37m cost in London, not £22m.

    £37m is about €44m.

    "The nine-car EMUs are being built at Alstom’s Derby factory. Following testing on the site’s own track they will undergo trials near London and then on the Elizabeth Line before entering passenger service later this year and into 2027.

    The £220·5m order was placed in June 2024 with funding from the Department for Transport. TfL has also awarded Alstom a maintenance contract running to 2046 which takes the total value of the deal £370m.

    The 10 trainsets will join the 70 identical sets already in service, providing more capacity to help meet growing demand and to serve the future interchange with High Speed 2 at Old Oak Common station."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,043 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    The Clas 345 inital order was over £1bn for 66 trains. That was topped up by 4 and then 10 as mentioned above.

    The 345 are not a fair comparison for Belfast fleet.

    It is for EMU version of DART.

    The class 897 when ordered was around €50m per train, The cost is it's a CAF model which are terrible for Irish and UK railways. Then Stadler fleet will have a higher speed off wires so that adds costs amoung other things.

    The Stadler order is expensive and spec was over complicted but anything is better than a CAF order.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Its ironic that IE are now locked into going from multipal engine units back to single power generation. All future ordres will have to be low floor and unless there is electrification done costs will only go one way.

    The Stadlers are still a Multiple Unit, just one with a power car on one end.

    From a passenger perspective this is preferable to a DMU with a noisy Diesel engine in each carriage.

    Once the line is electrified, they can remove the Diesel gen’s and convert to a pure EMU or BEMU. Of course it would be preferable if these lines were electrified from the start. But it is what it is.

    I don’t expect them to get more expensive, I suspect Stadler will be keen to compete for a future Mark 4 replacement contract and also there is the possibility for more trains if Cork and Belfast goes to half hourly. I also suspect that they once developed this model of train could be a strong competitor for the many non electrified routes in the UK.

    BTW I believe the battery requirement came for NIR, I’m not sure if they have any electrification plans for their end of the line and want to run on batteries from Belfast. A pity of course, but not much we can do about that.

    I wonder if a possible Mark 4 replacement will drop the battery requirement, if both DART+ and CACR electrification is in place in both ends. Though even a small battery for the towns in between would be nice.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    NIR want to run battery at Grand Central to address some issues with some troublesome neighbours

    I’m sure Stadler did the numbers on Cork as well, but that would need 25kV and diesel which the Enterprise spec can’t do, you can have diesel battery and 1500v or 25kV battery and 1500v



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Makes perfect sense why NIR want to do that. I do hope they plan to electrify eventually.

    Yes, I didn’t mean that it would be exact the same model as the Enterprise spec, but would be a variant that does either 25kV + Diesel or 25kV + Diesel + Battery for the Cork line.

    Though now that I’m thinking about it, I suppose I’m making the assumption that the fast lines into Heuston will be 25kV while the DART lines are 1500v, so no need for 1500v. But I don’t know if that is really the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,043 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    You are correct about AC/DC split into Heuston.

    I am aware of local issues in Belfast but I am sure they could have a plug in facility power while stopped. Everyone knows the noise is not the real issue there.

    Multiple NIR units make more noise than DD when stopped.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,043 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Delete



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,043 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    More going from 6 engines to relying on 2. It might still be a multiple unit but let’s see if they beat ICR reliability.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Having 25kv into Heuston mainline and 1500vDC for Dart SW would be a disaster. How do you move stock from the Heuston side over to Connolly? What about freight from N Wall through the PPT? Basically you will need dual-voltage for all long-distance units and locos, who could swirch from AC to DC just beyond Hazlehatch. Dual-voltage is absolutely routine on the continent, and I assume that it is a much less complicated and costly affair than the various types of hybrid being pursued (Electric-Diesel, Electric-battery, electric-hydorgen etc).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,043 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    Anything I have read indicates AC.

    I agree dual voltage will be required. Now if only you had those Battery DARTs operating to Hazelhatch and keep all Heuston side under AC. One reason why battery is good unlike using them because you have delayed investment on Connolly routes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    1500v is a free option as it basically connects directly into the train high voltage bus, just need the pantograph on the roof and some switchgear.

    25kV requires a transformer, rectifier, vacuum circuit breaker, thats fairly bulky at the power ratings needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭Economics101


    All the Dublin area DART+ stock would be 1500Vdc only (as at present). For long-distance Intercity (and freight) 25kv AC is the way to go, and it's the latter only which would need to be dual voltage.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Right, but one more generator then the Mark 4 and let’s not start with the reliability of the DD sets. So should hopefully be overall an improvement in reliability levels.

    Though if we are serious about reliability we should be aiming to electrify our lines ASAP.

    Ah, so if I’m not mistaken you are saying there isn’t space for both Diesel gen’s and 25kV?

    If that was the case it would certainly complicate a possible future Mark 4 replacement.

    I suppose they could run as pure Diesel (or Diesel + Battery) until the Cork line is fully electrified and then switch out the Diesel Gen’s for 25kV gear.

    Would be a pity, would have been nice if you could electrify the Cork line in phases.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭Economics101


    The UK has high-speed bi mode EMUs (class 800) on the GWR and WCML. So you can go from Euston to Crewe at 25kv, and on to Holyhead using diesel. If this can be done in the UK, it should be doable in Ireland, with its slightly more generous loading gauge.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes though apparently just 70km range at 120km/h dropping to 40 to 55km at 165km/h.

    Certainly a useful range addition, but more to help bridge smaller gaps and station running. Maybe useful for the likes of Limerick to LJ, etc. but likely need the Cork line mostly electrified.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭Economics101


    Sorry, but the units mentioned are electric-diesel bi-modes, and do not have the range-constaint of batteries. For example Crewe-Holyhead, and routes as far as Penzance, which can be hundreds of miles in diesel mode.



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  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Ah right yes, got you. They have trialled a tri-mode version of this train too with batteries, on the Class 802. That is battery range I was mentioning.

    Yes a straight bi-mode would work fine.

    Though having watched videos about the Class 80x, apparently passengers don’t like them, too noisy, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,723 ✭✭✭Economics101


    "Though having watched videos about the Class 80x, apparently passengers don’t like them, too noisy, etc." Yes, quite apart from the economic and environmental of EMUs, let's hope that passenger preferences will be a further argument for prioritising electrification.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,700 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    The whole specification and procurement of the IEP (80x) was a debacle from the UK govt. I have used the LNER 'Azuma' service a couple of times between Edinburgh and King's Cross and they are OK (probably because it was all electric). I do prefer the Class 390 'Pendolino' West Coast service though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 119 ✭✭thosewhoknow


    According to this document NIR has already done a feasibility study and business case for electrifying Belfast–Louth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,178 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Stormont hasn't got the money to pay for it, though.

    Unless Dublin pays for it, it isn't happening.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,368 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    I’d argue the best bet is for us to focus on just getting it done on our side and the Cork line. Perhaps that will embarrass Stormont and the UK government into funding it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,178 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Would we be able to actually use the ~45km from Drogheda to the Border though? I assume the Staedlers will need the diesel equipment removed to get 25kV AC added, so they'd then become gliders when they crossed the border!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,730 ✭✭✭goingnowhere


    Crew in Belfast are already deep in 25kV planning. Working out design requirements and regulations

    North of Drogheda will be 25kV the exact cut over point will probably be a few km beyond Drogheda



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 76,178 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    They aren't working out the money, though. It will all be as useful the GNR(I)s plans for 1500V DC Belfast to Dublin (and quad tracking in North Dublin) from the 50s without that.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 769 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Today is International Level Crossing Awareness Day, and the numbers this year really shocked me and show just how much the Sandymount LC closures are needed.

    There have been 31 recorded misuse incidents this year, ALL have been on DART LCs. 4 at Sutton, 6 at Bray, 4 at Sydney Parade, 5 at Serpentine Ave, and 11 at Lansdowne Road.

    I thought last year was bad where the Sandymount crossings accounted for about 1 in 6 incidents, however now they account for two-thirds of all incidents on the network! I am not sure what has caused such a large jump at these specific crossings this year (especially when the overall number is the same compared to last year) but there is no way IÉ, the NTA, and the DoT can look at these numbers and not decide these LCs need to removed as soon as possible. Assuming Bray LC is also removed with D+S that is almost 90% of incidents gone!

    It is a bit worrying for the LCs that will remain post D+. The Howth LCs especially given their expected frequency, however I'm also concerned about the 2 possible from the Navan line and the Ennis Lane crossing. The same can be said for the 2 CCTV LCs that will remain in cork post-CACR.



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