Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

Ireland trains

I created this thread because there is due to be alot of investment set to come in irish rail over the next few years (hopefully)
• 250 Bi-mode coaches
• 230 EMU coaches
• new enterprise fleet (possibly eletric)
• 41 new 22000 class centre coaches

The 2700 refurbishment has been scrapped
The new bi-modes and EMUs will be of the same design
The new 22k coaches will be to lenghten the sets which will increasing capacity and free up sets.
Older darts likley to be retired

Eletrification to Drogheda, Maynooth, M3 Parkway and Hazelhatch.
Quad track northern line
Dart route Docklands-Heuston
Reduce intercity journey times.
Is there anything that anyone could add.

Del.Monte

Get rid of CIE/Irish Rail before any further investment is made in anything?

lawred2

Ireland trains wrote: »

I created this thread because there is due to be alot of investment set to come in irish rail over the next few years (hopefully)
• 250 Bi-mode coaches
• 230 EMU coaches
• new enterprise fleet (possibly eletric)
• 41 new 22000 class centre coaches

The 2700 refurbishment has been scrapped
The new bi-modes and EMUs will be of the same design
The new 22k coaches will be to lenghten the sets which will increasing capacity and free up sets.
Older darts likley to be retired

Eletrification to Drogheda, Maynooth, M3 Parkway and Hazelhatch.
Quad track northern line
Dart route Docklands-Heuston
Reduce intercity journey times.
Is there anything that anyone could add.

Is this a wishlist?

L1011

lawred2 wrote: »

Is this a wishlist?

Most bar quad tracking and Enterprise is at least planned

uxiant

Maynooth electrification to Heuston via Docklands and Pearse would be huge for the city.

Infini

Del.Monte wrote: »

Get rid of CIE/Irish Rail before any further investment is made in anything?

Chucking the baby out with the bathtub never ends well you know! :P

lawred2

L1011 wrote: »

Most bar quad tracking and Enterprise is at least planned

Well without quad tracking the northern line it's all just lipstick on a pig. Same delays and congestion we have now only in nicer carriages

end of the road

lawred2 wrote: »

Well without quad tracking the northern line it's all just lipstick on a pig. Same delays and congestion we have now only in nicer carriages

exactly. of course it's doubtful that the powers that be will realise this.

XPS_Zero

end of the road wrote: »

exactly. of course it's doubtful that the powers that be will realise this.

They realize it , they just don't think voters care more about that than their tax cuts...or didn't. To my delight, a recent poll showed people want public service investment over tax cuts massively, even the squeezed middle since they realize free GP care would do more for them than getting an exta 20 a week back. This has rather upset Leos strategy for making all the same mistakes we made cutting taxes too far during the tiger years just to win elections. It might finally mean some good things for public transport.


The old established wisdom in politics was economy only, that nobody cared about public services unless they were personally affected, but this is changing now esp among under 40s who are getting way more policy orientated. We might finally start seeing some of these projects now.

Makes me happy I keept (and will keep) banging this drum that people need to tell canvassers we want PS investment not tax cuts.

Ireland trains

Does anyone have a diagram or picture of the new limerick junction platform.
Wvwn though there has been line improvment works between Newbridge and ballybrophy during the year why was there no journey time improvments in the December timetable change.
Thanks

tabbey

Ireland trains wrote: »

Wvwn though there has been line improvment works between Newbridge and ballybrophy during the year why was there no journey time improvments in the December timetable change.
Thanks

Line improvement works are a perpetual feature of railway maintenance.

Without them the track standard would gradually deteriorate and speed restrictions more severe.

We have had continous welded rail (CWR) for thirty or forty years, heavy rail (54 kg/metre) on the Cork line for some years.

If you want speed increases or reduced journey times, significant rebuilding of track formation is required. Realigning/ bypassing the Curragh curves, and perhaps a direct route from Monasterevan to Port Laoise would make a difference. South of Mallow the curved track is so lengthy that it would be uneconomic to fix the problem.

Ireland trains

They are replacing track with 60kg track for smoother ride and faster journey times on Dublin-Cork line which will also improve other intercity journey times.
Each December the JT are usually reduced by 3-5 min.
They might wait till the new platform at LJN open.

Lord Glentoran

M3 Parkway to Navan.

Otherwise what was really the point?

Colonel Claptrap

Have there been any concrete plans, drawings, costings or even aspirations for quad tracking?

Did it ever appear in a national development plan or similar?

How far north should 4 reduce back to 2 tracks?

Would each DART station require 4 platforms or would they remain as they are?

Is there room for more passing loops as an alternative?

With the massive development about to take place beside and above Clongriffin, do IE own any land where they could add a fourth platform - before it's too late?

Could they veto plans to build in the open scrubland to northwest, which theoretically could fit a spur to the airport?

Would it make sense to CPO sooner rather later, as large tracts of line adjacent land are being developed with housing at the moment.

Anyone care to pull a figure out of their arse and slap a price tag on quad tracking the northern line?

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

With the massive development about to take place beside and above Clongriffin, do IE own any land where they could add a fourth platform - before it's too late?

There already is a fourth platform built, the other side of the city-bound platform even has signs and stay behind the yellow line and shelters installed on it, there just isn't any track or wiring there but the platform itself is there.

Praetorian

I think major investment is due and I would love to see it happen.

I would love to see electrification start ASAP.

I would love to see quad tracking happen ASAP. Or could a 3rd line be added significantly cheaper? Peak traffic is only in one direction in fairness.

I caught quite a few trains around the Christmas period from Balbriggan to Connolly / Pearse, darts to the south side and back. So much of the infrastructure is in a bad way.

The slow running from 9am to 6pm south bound once you get into the dart area has been an issue for years. Nothing new there. What disappointed me was the slow running of north bound commuter services late in the evenings. There was no dart departures to contend with. Still my average speed to Malahide was 27-29 miles per hour over 3 late evening trains.

Ride quality is poor in general and seems well below the Cork line standards.

Why have the tracks around Connolly / Tara / Pearse never been upgraded to continuous welded rail? They look like they were last done 50 years ago (possible exaggeration). Surely they could be relaid in the evenings?

Platforms 5&6&7 around Connolly are embarrassingly dirty and old and badly need a face lift.

On a positive note. The trains were all clean inside and out.

Ireland trains

Is there a reason that irish rail only quad tracked the line to Hazelhatch.
Would it not be better to have 4 tracks all the way to kildare.
I know that the DART will only go to Hazelhatch, but why.
By not having the dart to kildare they are missing out on sallins, naas, newbridge and kildare which all have large populations.
And it would make sense to quad track to kildare now before the line gets more built up and is harder/more expensive to get land

L1011

Ireland trains wrote: »

Is there a reason that irish rail only quad tracked the line to Hazelhatch.

Money!

Colonel Claptrap

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/plans-for-liffey-bridge-derailed-by-dart-underground-scheme-1.3746924?mode=amp

Plans for a €17 million bridge spanning the River Liffey in Dublin’s Docklands have been scuppered amid concerns over the potential impact on the shelved Dart Underground scheme.

Lord Glentoran

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/plans-for-liffey-bridge-derailed-by-dart-underground-scheme-1.3746924?mode=amp

Plans for a €17 million bridge spanning the River Liffey in Dublin’s Docklands have been scuppered amid concerns over the potential impact on the shelved Dart Underground scheme.

God knows there doesn’t need to be yet another excuse to delay DART Underground any further.

randombar

I haven't a clue about this area so apologies but I'm just wondering with the demise of diesel etc what are peoples estimates for full electrication? Surely there would be a very long return on it?

Rashers72

devnull wrote: »

There already is a fourth platform built, the other side of the city-bound platform even has signs and stay behind the yellow line and shelters installed on it, there just isn't any track or wiring there but the platform itself is there.

I am always amazed the actual track was never installed. And I gather Irish Rail have never even asked NTA to fund it's installation. It would not even have cost that much to install. Also I have never even seen it's installation included in any planning for next 10 years. [But hoping for correction so if u have evidence to the contrary please let me know]. It would eradicate a fair % of the morning peak delays southbound towards Connolly I think. It might even let IE reverse the increased timetabled journey time (on Northern Suburban line in particular) since September. How IE felt they cud run 10 min Darts without a single peak time passing loop southbound from Drogheda to Connolly (60 kms) is beyond me. ðŸ™

tabbey

GaryCocs wrote: »

I haven't a clue about this area so apologies but I'm just wondering with the demise of diesel etc what are peoples estimates for full electrication? Surely there would be a very long return on it?

Reports of diesel's demise are premature.

The cost of electrification are so great, that outside of the Dublin and Belfast commuter regions, it is not economic.

thomasj

https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/1092385884538834944?s=19

Reply to an earlier tweet.

Rashers72

thomasj wrote: »

https://twitter.com/IrishRail/status/1092385884538834944?s=19

Reply to an earlier tweet.

They were saying something similar in 2017 & 2018, and then the refurbishment plans were scrapped due to cost. It is the serious pain about the NTA ultimately deciding on funding. Customers don't seem to feature in decision making these days.

LeinsterDub

tabbey wrote: »

Reports of diesel's demise are premature.

The cost of electrification are so great, that outside of the Dublin and Belfast commuter regions, it is not economic.

The Dublin commuter region stretches across most of the eastern side of the country country now. Could we use hybrids to bridge the gaps between Belfast and Cork?

Ireland trains

Just a few bits from recent(ish) articals
Some seem like a wish lise by irish rail

• relocate docklands station
•new platform 8 at connolly (suburban or terminus?)
• quad track Heuston-Park West
• Expanded DART network
• up to 4tph Galway-athenry (likley includes services to dublin and limerick)
• 2nd platform at oranmore
• new cork commuter stations
• relocation of waterford station
• transport hub at limerick
• rebuilt Galway ceannet station with 3 platforms
• 41 new ICR coaches from 2021 which will either be all indeterminate coaches or possibly 3 new sets
• WRC study
• hourly service to sligo
• 2 hourly to westport
• double tracking to athlone
• hourly to galway
• new pelletstown station
• new platform at limerick junction
•potential leasing of class 170 or 185 from britian

Some of these ambitions by irish rail seen a like a bit of a fantasy like hourly sligo service.

One of the most likley things to happen will be expanded weeked DART and PPT services from the end of this year

Colonel Claptrap

I notice they have 'upgraded' the on-board announcements for DART. The voiceover track is the one from inter city services I believe.

Still cuts out mid-sentence ever other stop though.

Why would you bother upgrading if this massive flaw still exists?

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I notice they have 'upgraded' the on-board announcements for DART. The voiceover track is the one from inter city services I believe.

Still cuts out mid-sentence ever other stop though.

Why would you bother upgrading if this massive flaw still exists?

Was that on the original refurbished ones or the newer Asian ones?

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

Was that on the original refurbished ones or the newer Asian ones?

One of the old ones.

tabbey

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

I notice they have 'upgraded' the on-board announcements for DART.

Does it still advise passengers to change at Dun Laoghaire for ferry services?

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

One of the old ones.

Be typical if they broke that system, bearing in mind it's the most reliable PIS system of any of the Irish Rail fleets, the one on the newer darts is woeful.

I've never seen the mid sentence cut off issue you describe though, apart from on a single unit that had a newer version of software applied in 2016 which broke a good system, but thought it had been rolled back.

Colonel Claptrap

devnull wrote: »

I've never seen the mid sentence cut off issue you describe though

For safety and security this train has CC...

devnull

Colonel Claptrap wrote: »

devnull wrote: »

I've never seen the mid sentence cut off issue you describe though

For safety and security this train has CC...

That's not on the Old 8100 trains with the bench seating? Only on the Asian 8500 ones which I agree it's a problem for.

Hope that system isn't being migrated to the old ones as well as its rubbish!!

Captain Chaos

The system the 8100s got in the refurb is better than the ones the 8500s have.

devnull

Captain Chaos wrote: »

The system the 8100s got in the refurb is better than the ones the 8500s have.

Indeed - very reliable system, which is more than can be said about the system on the 8500 which rarely works very well and you can have situations on an 8500 where announcements, side and internal displays all give out conflicting information.

Believe that the 8100 system is based on the same system and display product line as used in the UK Desiro fleets which is also considered as very reliable.

GM228

devnull wrote: »

Indeed - very reliable system, which is more than can be said about the system on the 8500 which rarely works very well and you can have situations on an 8500 where announcements, side and internal displays all give out conflicting information.

Believe that the 8100 system is based on the same system and display product line as used in the UK Desiro fleets which is also considered as very reliable.

Correct, in the UK the 195s, 365s, 373s, 397s, 802 IEPs, Desiros and here the 8100s and Enterprise use the Televic PIS system.

devnull

GM228 wrote: »

Correct, in the UK the 195s, 365s, 373s, 397s, 802 IEPs, Desiros and here the 8100s and Enterprise use the Televic PIS system.

The rest is Ikusi I believe and maintained by Quaestor?

Hopefully in the future Irish Rail won't go down the Ikusi route if they can avoid it, because honestly, from the poor quality displays, the unreliable PIS that either doesn't work or not know where it's going, the not very good seat reservation system and the broken for a best part of a decade on board maps, the systems just seem cheap and poor quality.

loyatemu

Speaking of PIS, I see the interactive map that never works on the newest Darts has now been covered over with a cardboard map. Progress.

XPS_Zero

tabbey wrote: »

Does it still advise passengers to change at Dun Laoghaire for ferry services?

Yes, they still have not changed this.

Marcusm

XPS_Zero wrote: »

Yes, they still have not changed this.

And proper order too; how else would passengers know to alight for the ferry to Dublin City and/or Howth!

Jamie2k9

Oranmore might get a passing loop installed co funded by IE and Urban and Rural Regeneration Funds. Interesting use of funds, wonder if they will explore it on other parts of the network if successful.

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/irish-rail-to-investigate-potential-of-increasing-routes-to-and-from-galway/

dowlingm

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Oranmore might get a passing loop installed co funded by IE and Urban and Rural Regeneration Funds. Interesting use of funds, wonder if they will explore it on other parts of the network if successful.

https://galwaybayfm.ie/galway-bay-fm-news-desk/irish-rail-to-investigate-potential-of-increasing-routes-to-and-from-galway/

while the loop would improve the efficiency of Galway area operations, one wonders how much service could be added without a third platform - I believe there was a plan for one in the station siding track?

loyatemu

dowlingm wrote: »

while the loop would improve the efficiency of Galway area operations, one wonders how much service could be added without a third platform - I believe there was a plan for one in the station siding track?

can't remember where I read it but I think a 3rd platform is planned for Galway.

edit - mention of it here

and more details here, though no confirmation of the extra platform

Jamie2k9

dowlingm wrote: »

while the loop would improve the efficiency of Galway area operations, one wonders how much service could be added without a third platform - I believe there was a plan for one in the station siding track?

Two platforms is plenty to provide increased services while a third would be more useful. Today for example if the layout was better the main platform should be cleared to allow more than one movement like what happens in Heuston.

Loops at Athenry, Oranmore and Galway would at a minimun cut the regular delays.

goingnowhere

Won't make a huge difference as the section between Athenry and Galway is already split so two trains can follow each other, all you could do is run a shuttle Oranmore - Galway

To make a real difference they need two tracks Galway Athenry

Markcheese

Are the speed constraints on for eg cork /Dublin mainly due to too many junctions / crossing point /local traffic or more curves and bends on the line.
Has anyone proposed pendilino style trains or would it give minimum speed increase for serious cost,

L1011

Cork-Dublin alignment is very, very straight compared to what you would generally buy Pendolino trains for.

http://www.irishrail.ie/media/ie_2018_network_statement_(final_version).pdf shows the speed limits for each section of track - theres a lot of 145km/h sections

devnull

Markcheese wrote: »

Are the speed constraints on for eg cork /Dublin mainly due to too many junctions / crossing point /local traffic or more curves and bends on the line.
Has anyone proposed pendilino style trains or would it give minimum speed increase for serious cost,

Buying Pendolino trains to make a statement to look good and then running them on infrastructure that will not make the most of their technology to tilt or their high speed potential (like PKP in Poland) would be a waste of money since you could buy other well made trains that would not have anything you can't make use of whilst still having everything you could.

Praetorian

The Dublin to Belfast line is quite curvy...

Losty Dublin

Praetorian wrote: »

The Dublin to Belfast line is quite curvy...

But a lot of the corners on the route are short and sharp in places that requires very slow speeds. Drogheda and Poyntzpass are the obvious ones but bar Grangebellow outside Drogheda most of the issues are north of the Border; Lisburn, Portadown and Newry being the three worst offenders. Barring serious investments to relocate the line there is not a lot that can be done though I would agree with you that such stock would help elsewhere en route.