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Clampdown on TV 'Dodgy Boxes'

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,616 ✭✭✭wassie


    Infantino is no better than Blatter was, and a Trump brown nose.

    100%.

    More Perfect Union put out a good investigation into just how much of a scam World Cup ticketing will be in the US this time around thanks to these two gangsters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,616 ✭✭✭wassie


    All world cup games will be broadcast on the channels CazéTV (Brazil) but will be in Portuguese only.

    Aleph Arena (Philippines) will have around 40 games but will be in English and will include some big group matches.

    They will be geoblocked but I assume a VPN will bypass this easily enough.

    EDIT: scratch that - didnt realise RTE & VirginMedia will have all their games on their players.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,877 ✭✭✭John arse




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    The current iteration is third party apps hosted on consumer devices using m3u URLs/Xtream codes to access playlists of illegal streams.

    They all use a URL which is routed back through multiple hops to some sort of provider

    It's inevitable that authorities will eventually get the better of this and they will no longer be worth it for the end user.

    But what comes after that will take a while to become ubiquitous the way the above system has.

    The current iteration has been around a bit, but it's only in recent times that every man and his dog has one.

    And as broadcasting and content creation moves further towards an IPTV rather than a satellite/DTTV delivery the broadcasters and creators are going to invest further in making sure their IPTV products don't become easy targets for piracy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭DXR


    Remember a few years ago there was a fight, I think it was McGregor but not 100% on that, anyway it was a PPV event only.

    Irony was, those that paid for it legit through Sky/Virgin or whoever, ended up not being able to view it live, due to some kind of glitch on the night, while those with IPTV subs watched it without incident. 😂



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,011 ✭✭✭Dr Robert




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭deezell


    There is a hardware protocol which provides end to end encryption of a stream, whereby it is only decoded right at the dedicated video decoder and led/lcd display driver. This requires tvs/ monitors to comply with this hardware requirement. No scraping or screen grabbing is possible on the viewing device (just like you can't screengrab/screen capture a banking app, RTE player, and even certain print media sites on a mobile phone. Jailbreak it and the apps won't run). This would leave only optical capture, camera to monitor, but this would be of extremely poor quality. Any attempt to hardware engineer the device to harvest a clear decrypted signal would require very sophisticated technology and knowledge, and given that signal would be fingerprinted with subtle digital abberations, it would be very easy for the provider to identify the source clients account and switch off their decoder.

    I seen this technology demonstrated many years ago, 2017 or 2018, by a major AV company. Its designed to ensure secure routing of a media companies output to an end user, with no possibility of the stream being tapped enroute, right up to and inside the display device. It would require the cooperation of all device manufacturers though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,007 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    100 percent on point here with this post.

    The other thing that needs to be remembered is that the cost of "offical" methods of watching sports etc has gotten prohibitive for many people.

    You've got to wonder if IPTV stopped working tomorrow (and nothing came along to replace it), would 400,000 people/households (whatever the figure is) start shelling over 140 odd euro a month for sports/movie/series etc (or whatever it is) to Sky and others to get their fix of sports? I know many who wouldn't.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 286 ✭✭DXR


    Would be back to the days of watching highlights lol!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,007 ✭✭✭✭kippy




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,815 ✭✭✭tigger123


    Aertel 231 I think for live scores?

    The things I've lived to see, let me tell you.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,284 ✭✭✭selectamatic


    The first of them netflix circus events were a disaster for legit viewers anyways as far as I recall.

    Tyson Vs Paul I think was bad bad for glitching whereas it was grand on IPTV providers



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭deezell


    It didnt consume our lives back then. You'd get a fix on Saturday with 'Match of the Day', then maybe play some sport yourself on Sunday, or bring your kids to Gaa/football/rugby, or just dig the garden. Now were blanketed with beer/gambling ads that intimate you're only happy plonked on a couch watching endless match after match, night after night, with cans and a paddy power app. I know because I've done this (though not the cans/bets) when in denial after retirement. It's not recreation, it's a disease. It's the long version of doom scrolling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭jj880


    "I've seen things you people wouldn't believe!"

    Tried to let it go but couldnt. Bladerunner is my favourite movie.

    Many a day I lay watching the aertel scores update. Simpler times.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,860 ✭✭✭SteM


    If you weren't listening to Alan Green on MW BBC Radio 5 you were doing it wrong :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭deezell


    Or Kid Jensen on radio Luxembourg, whose AM signal only propagated around the curve of the Horizon when dusk fell, it would arrive through the hiss and noise like an alien. All the nights I fell asleep to the mellow mid range audio from an ancient valve radio cabinet that my old man brought me home from an auction. Kid J is still around at 75. So am I, touch wood.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,963 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    But it's not a comparable offering.

    In reality nothing is a comparable offering to a dodgy box.

    Because broadcasting rules, geography etc prevent people from getting what they get on a dodgy box through legitimate means.

    There is no legitimate way of getting all EPL games live on any service in Ireland or the UK.

    There is no legitimate way of watching Australian or US or Mongolian network stations.

    The evution of services like NOW have made getting legitimate streams much easier and cheaper and less restrictive than ever, so only fools and people who don't care what they spend are paying the top prices for Sky etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭jj880


    You're calling people fools for not doing all this: getting discount codes, special offers, negotiating on the phone at the end of your introductory monthly rate on a contract, cancelling and re-signing up to streaming service when a particular show releases etc etc. to save some money on Pay TV rates.

    It doesnt make any sense to compare that to a dodgy box service where you sign up and have everything under 1 app. It's pointless. To compare apples with apples (as close as we possibly can) it makes sense to talk about the higher prices without all the extra effort outlined above for Pay TV. You're making yourself sound daft trying to compare the prices including all the jumping through hoops for a discount.

    In fact Id say the only thing you're doing is making IPTV sound more appealing with such a ridiculous argument. You're actually pointing out how much less effort is it to have everything available in 1 place with minimal effort on a dodgy box compared to all the carry on above trying to keep multiple Pay TV services discounted.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73 ✭✭TenBeers


    Staying up to late on a school night to watch your team on Sportsnight and then they didn't even show the goals 😭😭



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭✭irishgeo


    One is legal, one isn't. Let's not forget that.

    One could stop working in the morning after you paying for it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭✭irishgeo


    How am I wrong? Your making assumptions I know nothing about it just because I didn't write a huge post on it. While you have posted an interesting post. Did Sky not manage to stop card sharing on their platform you failed to mention that?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭jj880


    Sure that's a given but if you're going to objectively compare the price of something surely you must consider the effort involved / not involved to maintain the price.

    Someone originally said to get the same (as close as possible) service you'd be looking at 200 / 300 euro per month for pay tv. I dont see the point in discussing the rigmarole involved (and calling people fools for not doing it) to get the pay tv amount down a bit is because at the present time anyone running a dodgy box doesnt give 2 shiny sh!tes about the difference or legal aspect of it. It's still nowhere near the same price and jumping through hoops to narrow the gap slightly isnt going to convince anyone of anything in my opinion.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,022 ✭✭✭✭irishgeo


    The price can't be compared at all. IPTV is stealing the content. It doesn't have the cost of buying the rights, producing the content or paying staff etc.

    It's like comparing the price of a brand new factory brought car and a stolen car from the factory.

    Of course the stolen car is going to be cheaper.

    Sky is a rip off I agree and that model is broken. **** knows how they manage keep on the **** channels on air and sell advertising for all of them. Is anyone even watching quest+1.

    The convience of IPTV is unreal. Every channel you ever wanted when you want it.

    It is going to be an interesting few years.

    The problem Sky have now is that IPTV is now mainstream and too easy for the average person to setup and use.

    It has probably hit the tipping now where they need to act on it. Hence the legal action. The propaganda articles. The increase in raids. The Amazon, Google app crackdown.

    Let's not forget that Sky is now American owned and more talks in America.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,897 ✭✭✭jmcc


    You don't show any understanding of when card sharing was developed, the technical and economic limitations of card sharing or what was happening in the pirate TV market at that time. You don't understand when card sharing became a viable solution and when external developments overtook it in the market. It is all there in the post.

    So to the Irish media version of the explanation.

    At its most simple, card sharing is based on broadcasting keys from an authorised card to other decoders so that they can use that single card to watch the same channel.

    Sky knew about this in 1989 and the company providing Sky's system patented some techniques to stop it working efficiently. Most people did not have Internet access at that time. The Internet was a good delivery channel that allowed the key stream to be delivered to a larger set of users.

    Card sharing was not user friendly and other options like pirate smartcards for Sky and other services hit the market and people used these.

    The card to decoder link on Sky's system was not encrypted. The keys could be broadcast. There was a flawed implementation of an algorithm that would ensure that a card was a genuine Sky card. Pirate smartcards were a much bigger problem for Sky. After about 3 years, Sky dealt with the pirate smartcard problem. It had already decided to switch to digital.

    Sky's digital system solved some of the problems that made the older version of card sharing work. It used encryption on the card to decoder link. Card sharing was still not user friendly and required a bit of set-up. Broadband and even flat-rate Internet access were not common. That added a cost to card sharing.

    Technological developments made it easier to emulate CAMs in software and a range of set top boxes(decoders) hit the market that could be connected to a modem/router via a network cable. More people got broadband and these developments made card sharing more viable for a while. A German broadcaster went bust and a lot of cheap set top boxes that could be adapted hit the market. They were branded D-Box2 hence "dodgybox".

    Card sharing was based on broadcasting the keys to watch a service. With the falling costs of servers and Internet bandwidth. it became possible to rebroadcast entire channels via the Internet. Cheap Android devices allowed people to use these streams to watch programmes. This was the point were Sky and other broadcasters lost control over their systems and when the economics of piracy changed. It became device independent and the user no longer needed a set top box to access the broadcaster's service.

    Previously, cards sharing required a considerable investment in hardware by the user. Streaming dropped those costs for a user.

    The cost of these streaming services are a fraction of the official subscriptions needed to access that programming. This made it difficult for Sky to compete technically and economically with piracy. The rights model had been based on countries. The streaming services could operate from servers in other countries and that made it much more difficult for Sky to deal with this problem because the subscription being used ny these services may not even be a Sky subscription.

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭deezell


    That's a great concise history. "card sharing was not user friendly ". You got that right! A real black art to set up a set top box, but it became easier with practise. Surprisingly, one of the most popular reasons for this was to receive RTE 1, 2 , if your local terrestrial signal was poor. They were encrypted for geographical reasons as the Astra satellite signal covered the whole UK, so RTE was and is encrypted for rights reasons, though the UK main stations are Free to Air on Astra, plus a plethora if others, and still are, so don't require any decryption. Cards issued in the UK wouldn't, afaik, decrypt RTE, only cards issued for Ireland. Thus they created a demand among ex Pats, (aka Paddys) in the UK for a means if watching Irish TV. Astra was available in mainland Europe, a satellite dish and a card share later, and you had RTE1, 2 , TV3.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,728 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    definitely gonna be a very interesting few years in this, but again, i suspect we ll still be using illegal iptv for many years to come, the whole industry is in a complete mess, and rights holders have very few tools at hand to get the upper hand, im truly amazed how some of these companies are still going, as this must be causing serious functioning issues at this stage



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,897 ✭✭✭jmcc


    The guy who developed some of the algorithms used by VideoCrypt (Adi Shamir of RSA fame) said that it would take until the sun burned out before the algorithms used on Sky VideoCrypt could be broken (or similar). That was a bit of a challenge and it was made in Europe. The problem was that Europe was one of the most competitive Pay TV piracy areas where almost all the Conditional Access systems at the time were hacked and pirate decoders were freely available. The legislative framework was worse than now and there was no EU/EC wide laws. Card sharing was definitely not user friendly and not economically viable and the delivery channel for the keys was either radio (very complex) or phone (required modems and phone lines and very expensive). Card sharing worked. Without a cheap/free delivery channel, it was no threat to Sky.

    The pirate smartcards were the complete opposite in terms of being usr friendly. They were plug and play. Anyone with a Sky VideoCrypt decoder or STB could simply plug it into the slot and watch Sky. Even with the later versions of card sharing, it was a limited threat to Sky. It was nowhere near as user friendly as the pirate smartcards. Things went nuclear with streaming because it is extremely user friendly. If one provider gets taken down, there are always others offering the same services.

    RTE decided to be RTE and chose a different frequency block and different orbital slot/satellite for its Saorsat service. Anyone wanting Saorsat had to get a new LNB and a new dish or fitting for their existing dish. RTE on Astra was probably the best way to reach the market in Ireland but the copyright issue meant it had to be encrypted. The Saorsat feed is a kind of "security by obscurity" as few people seem to know where it is or how to receive it.

    The problem for RTE is that it has little control as Sky is still the gatekeeper for the UK and Ireland on Astra. Unless, a channel is free to air, it has to use Sky's system if it is encrypted. As a market, Ireland is far too small for dedicated encryption system and managing such a service would probably cost a lot more than it would make in subscriptions.

    Freesat is aiming at a much bigger market. The UK only got its cable TV franchises set up in the 1980s and with cable broadband, satellite TV is not as popular in the UK as it was in the 1990s. People want user friendly and simple solutions. FTA is perhaps the easiest way to do that.

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭atilladehun




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,349 ✭✭✭hold my beer


    I think you're over estimating the number of people who have no bother stealing.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭jj880


    While IPTV is easily available it will be compared on a practical basis. I dont get the position of "price cant be compared" to pay tv. It is and will continue to be compared based on ease of use and cost. "Because it's illegal" isnt a major factor here at the moment. Sure it's interesting to debate here between a handful of us but that's how it is. In terms of comparison I'd contend very few are taking any notice of the legal aspect in real terms.

    I agree it will an interesting few years (app blocking, what will come of the legal action? will anyone really care if a few customers of some idiot reseller in Wexford get fined etc.) but in my opinion is there is no big solution coming. Its tinkering round the edges and will be worked around (technical) or have very little impact (media, legal).

    Is the propaganda in the media working? Hard to quantify. I dont think it's having a major effect. Probably slows uptake enough to make funding the media campaign worth it.

    Overall this the reality until something a lot bigger changes.

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