Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

How many of us think that unification is no longer a priority and don't really want unification ?

1313234363740

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I can enunciate perfectly well thank you and keep myself informed on what people from the political parties, to stakeholders offer to the debate taking place in various forums and publications.

    The opening sentence of your under-researched post

    'Just for sh*ts and giggles, here are SF's "proposals" on a UI,'

    shows me a number of things, your intent and that you are not currently 'pro-UI.  



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Don't have issue with a lot of it - however I think we have to be brave and ambitious from the start.
    Therefore I think Stormont and devolution should be put in the history bin.
    It has never worked properly and never will. Heading towards it's cyclical crisis once again as we speak.
    We all live on a small Ireland, it should be run by one parliament.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Big picture, I think this provides a solid foundation to build on, but with few issues that need to be addressed.

    The most significant is the continuation of British citizenship. This isn't something that we would have the power to guarantee. I would be reluctant to include commitments that depend entirely on decisions made by the British government. We commit to seeking arrangements that would allow people in thr former Northern Ireland to retain British citizenship and the associated rights, but that decision rests with the UK.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 6,004 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    UK will agree that without question. They already practically afford the exact same privileges in Britain to Irish citizens so it wouldn't really make much difference to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    If the British aren't agreeable to that one, Unionists are in a lot of trouble, I would think.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Whether they will or won't agree is irrelevant; advocate for it with the assumption that the British will agree by all means, but it is not within our power to grant British citizenship and it'd be a wildly inappropriate swing at Britain's sovereignty to go beyond assuming that into guaranteeing it.

    The mutual rights afforded between the UK and Ireland due to the CTA may in effect practically afford the exact same privileges, but it is the symbolism of British citizenship that's at the core of the issue rather than the specific rights for an awful lot. For those, it really does make a difference.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    So far all you have enunciated is that the government must make a plan. You haven't a clue what should be in the plan, and you won't discuss the issue with people who disagree with you, calling them "belligerents" and "partitionists" in some name-calling competition in which you are the only entrant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I think it is a fair assumption that the Irish government will be in negotiation with the British government and that this is what they should be negotiating for commitments on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 18,071 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    I'm pro UI, I'm not pro SF due to the mess they've been making of a UI policy.

    If you're going to be calling people partitionist because they don't agree with lack of policy, then it's more than fair for everyone to call those who won't dare talk about a plan or policy as partitionist and label them accordingly.

    It seems you have no interest in a UI other than attempts to score cheap points on the Irish governments over the years.

    More generally, is the use of the term partitionist by SF supporters as pathetic as the use of woke for the far right? "Everything I don't like is a partitionist".



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    You do what you think correct.

    I see no shame in being a partitionist if that is what you currently believe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭JohnDoe2025


    If you define "partitionist" as some who doesn't do anything effective to further a united Ireland, then, yes, that poster and Sinn Fein fall within the definition of partititionist.

    That is the problem with labels, the misuse on this thread of labels like "partitionist" and "belligerent" only shows how far away a united island is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A plethora of ideas and suggestions for a UI posted and folk want to discuss another poster.

    If there is a rule against using descriptive terms like Unionist, Loyalist, Republican, Partitionist, Federalist, Dissident, etc etc, (all of which you can be today and change away from tomorrow) I have no issue abiding by it.
    If you see me as 'partitionist', so what if I know different myself?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    That is a whole different kettle of fish from making a commitment to it in any sort of pre-poll plan/manifesto. Absolutely we should negotiate for it, but it can't be guaranteed as it absolutely isn't within the gift of the Irish government to offer. I can't see the British offering any sort of commitment to it in perpetuity either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    That's what I think. That is not intended as a 'Plan' more discussion points for a 'Plan'



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    But if we're going to start promising things, 'the Brits' will do that we have no control of, sure we may as well go the whole hog and promise they'll give us all a million each as reparations.

    Like I've said, it's a noble enough aspiration, but absolutely nothing to do with a new Irish government's decision. Any planning efforts should very clearly define and differentiate that which is within our remit and that which isn't but we hope to negotiate for, lest we be left in a Brexit type situation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Yep agree I don't see any benefit for anyone in the North to maintain a devolved Government. As it stands it's just a nationalist/unionist popularity contest rather than a vehicle for legislating and balancing the economic budget. I doubt many in the South would be happy to throw 10 billion a year to them so they don't have to worry about running on a deficit and can continue their spats.

    It's a conciliatory idea in theory and one would like to think once the UI question is settled people would vote based on who can best run the economy, but that is being extremely wishful imo. And, such a scenario is still a form of partition, and a much more constituted permanent one, as how would it be ended?

    Far better all round to have a central Parliament, SF would be delighted to have the extra guaranteed electorate, while unionists can be safe in the knowledge that they'll be joining an electorate in the south similarly minded to 'keep them out'.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    It does imagine that the right to British citizenship would only pass to the children of current passport holders, so it would extinguish for the next generation.

    That said, the colour of your passport is a fairly shallow representation of your nationality/identity. I doubt many British people who scrambled to obtain an Irish passport after Brexit for their holliers were too concerned about suddenly not being British.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    It doesn't matter right up until it does. While it certainly isn't ubiquitous, anyone who has had any interaction with the hardline DUP/TUV end of Unionism would be confident in saying just how much the colour of their passport is the single most important thing in the world in certain circumstances, even while the same were happily getting their Irish passports for quick queuing on their holidays to the Canaries.

    Have a look at some of Sammy Wilson's commentary around Brexit and the NI Protocol for context.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    I wouldn't agree for a minute that there would be a 'extra guaranteed electorate' for SF.
    I think voting would normalise island wide with the constitutional question settled. Whoever offers best gets the vote.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    The simple difference is you're ascribing a label to people based on what you think they are, not what they themselves identify as. That's derogatory.

    Partitionist is a dismissive/disrespectful term invented by those to slant/undermine people who aren't fully committed to the 'cause'.

    It's extremely immature and petty and tbh I'm surprised that someone of your debating calibre would resort to it. It's a term only deserved of use by SF bots.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,858 ✭✭✭standardg60


    No denying there are dinosaurs who will fight to their death maintaining what NI was supposed to be actually for and sadly made their 'Britishness' their sole raison d'etre.

    I see a new unionist with the likes of @downcow and indeed Bryson, while staunchly holding their unionist views they don't see us as some sort of backwoods native tribe.

    Bryson was on NT a couple of weeks ago debating with (forgive me I don't remember who) from the south and they weren't far off arranging to go for a pint. This is the same guy who thought a Munster flag was a balaclava promoting the IRA at an Ireland game a couple of years ago.

    Engagement is key, those who engage will learn that there is nothing to be feared, those that refuse to engage and choose to label and 'other' will be left behind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,217 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    ....have a look at Bryson on Twitter and try tell me that. I'll happily engage with and discuss with anyone, but if you're basing your plan for Unity on bringing absolutely everyone including UVF proxies like himself along, you may give up now. It's particularly sickening given that he never actually experienced half of what he's whinging about and from what I've heard, he picked it up from his UVF buddies rather than his family, though that's admittedly third hand info at best.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Also never got more than 167 votes when he stood for election but managed to be practically running the DUP with Donaldson



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I don’t understand the question.  You do realise what the polling figures suggest and who needs to convince who?  

    That’s like asking how are you going to convince the people of Republic of Ireland that they don’t want England to win the World Cup?   Or indeed convincing turkeys that Christmas is a bad idea?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    exactly.
    And they have not told us how they are going to contain hundreds of thousands of frustrated and angry unionists – because containment is what it will be.
    The little village of Scarva today (population just 300) may give an insight into the challenges.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    there is no comparison to refer to it as reunification. Reunification would be under the crown. Ireland has only ever been united when Britain forced it to unite. It has always been partitioned by choice through history



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,424 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    of course I can make a very clear argument and demonstrate exactly what the union of the uk did/does/will look like. You can do none of the above.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 81,062 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Rather than veiled threats about 'containing' angry Unionists how about you demonstrate what the Union will offer those undecided's. Because the facts are Unionism is in decline, as an ideology it is losing it's appeal.



Advertisement
Advertisement