Is Irelands neutrality stance in WW2 unfairly criticized? (see Mod note 217)

It proves you did not read the whole story about Hempel earlier in the thread. Do your research.

Nobody said he definitely was, but it is a fact the Allies absolutely wanted to question German diplomats in neutral countries as World War II came to a close. Hempel was the highest ranking German diplomat in Ireland and a Nazi party member. Some of the highest ranking Nazi diplomats in other countries had a lot to answer for.

The main goal of this operation was to investigate the overseas networks of the Nazi regime. They wanted to question them for lots of reasons, to see what they knew if anything about tracking stolen assets, intelligence gathering, war crimes and reparations etc.

Your lack of knowledge is astonishing. Can you not read a few books on the war? Even google will tell you "the Allies actively wanted to question German diplomats in neutral countries at the end of World War II. They viewed these officials as crucial sources of intelligence, both for prosecuting war criminals and tracking down hidden Nazi economic assets abroad. "

Here is a summary of some reasons why the Allies focused on questioning these diplomats :

• Operation Safehaven: Toward the end of the war, the Allies launched this initiative to map, locate, and seize German assets hidden in neutral nations
• Uncovering Intelligence: Diplomats in neutral capitals served as key liaisons between the crumbling Nazi regime and the rest of the world. The Allies wanted to debrief them to gather operational intelligence, understand Nazi espionage networks, and track fleeing officials.
• Denying Diplomatic Status: The Allied Control Council asserted control over all German external assets and demanded that neutral countries sever diplomatic ties with the fallen Nazi regime. They required these governments to hand over embassy properties, records, and the diplomats themselves for questioning and…..

Of course when the Allies requested the Irish government hand over the German embassy records immediately, the government here gave Hempel more than adequate time to destroy all records. This was discussed earlier in the thread if I remember correctly.

I refer you to the history of our island since 1169. We’ve been in conflict with them since then. The fact that some of us worked over there or served in their army is neither here nor there. They are right next door and we have developed many links with them over the years because of their occupation of our island. Look at this from an Irish viewpoint. The hatred of Britain was deep at the time and rightly so. Dev had many people in his party who would have vehemently rejected any move to fight alongside the British. It’s like asking why the Finns sided with the Nazis for some years - the answer lies in the even deadlier threat posed to them by the Soviets. Every country has its own historical context for the decisions made. We’re not some appendage of Britain as Churchill seemed to think we were. On this particular matter I think De Valera expressed things well:

Mr. Churchill is proud of Britain's stand alone, after France had fallen and before America entered the War. 

Could he not find in his heart the generosity to acknowledge that there is a small nation that stood alone not for one year or two, but for several hundred years against aggression; that endured spoliation's, famines, massacres in endless succession; that was clubbed many times into insensibility, but that each time on returning consciousness took up the fight anew; a small nation that could never be got to accept defeat and has never surrendered her soul? 

Mr. Churchill is justly proud of his nation's perseverance against heavy odds. But we in this island are still prouder of our people's perseverance for freedom through all the centuries. We, of our time, have played our part in the perseverance, and we have pledged our selves to the dead generations who have preserved intact for us this glorious heritage, that we, too, will strive to be faithful to the end, and pass on this tradition unblemished. 

Many a time in the past there appeared little hope except that hope to which Mr. Churchill referred, that by standing fast a time would come when, to quote his own words: "…the tyrant would make some ghastly mistake which would alter the whole balance of the struggle."

With the benefit of hindsight, I would have preferred if we had put aside our deep resentment over the centuries of British oppression we suffered and instead fought alongside the Allies and admitted large numbers of Jewish refugees but I can fully understand why that course of action wasn’t taken.

Has any tried rebooting Francis? They appear to be stuck in a loop!

At least I am not always agreeing with someone who admitted he has more that one boards.ie account.

WTF are you on about? Are you making stuff up again?

You are really showing your ignorance yet again. It was already pointed out to you Extradition did not exist in Ireland in 1945.

Quote:

"FrancieBrady kept asking why was he not extradited, but if he knew anything about the era or Hempel, he would have known that extradition did not legally exist in Ireland in 1945. Although this State inherited British extradition laws, those laws broke down by the late 1920s. For decades, we relied on informal handovers - or not - instead of formal, court-backed procedures."

I wrote (post no. 683) "Are you not aware that at the end of the war, the Allies requested the handover and prosecution of Nazi diplomats? The Allied Control Council formally stripped the Nazi diplomatic service of its authority in 1945.

As noted already, if you research it, you will see many German and Axis diplomats were arrested, prosecuted by military tribunals, or tried for war crimes and "conspiring to wage aggressive war". Dev allowed Hempel remain here from 1945 until 1949. He stayed out near Dun Laoghaire as far as I remember."

Hold on now Francis, you only found that out after claiming Dev refused 'an extradition request' and me pointing out to you you were talking rubbish
You are some chancer to be lecturing anyone now, I will give you that. 😁 But your spiel is so corrupted now with spin and lies, why not keep at it?

Now have you any primary sources for a request to hand over Hempel.

Handing over diplomats from Allied countries is not the same thing as Neutral countries followed diplomatic protocols to different degrees.

I should add a more pressing reason for neutrality - avoiding the cost and slaughter that comes from waging war. Every leader must weigh up the dreadful price of joining a conflict against any benefits.

Apart from the morality question - what did we do to stop the slaughter of 70 million people in a war where the Axis were the invaders / aggressors - you have to ask yourself "what if."

"What if " Germany won the Battle of the Atlantic (they nearly did) ………they would have ended up invading us, "same as they invaded 6 other "neutral" countries in Europe. We were saved by being behind Britain.

The Germans proved their intent by the way they exterminated captured Irish neutral merchant mariners in slave labour concentration camps.

We also feared a British Invasion, the British having proved on this island how they dealt with natives who protested.
They had also very recently threatened 'immediate and terrible war' if they did not get their way here.

Hindsight - those who had actually faced the threat 'of immediate and terrible war and who had lived under Brithish rule here didn't have your luxury or legendary by now 'British are always right' zeal.

I never said the British or anyone else "is always right". We are talking about WW2 and you said we feared a British invasion! Did we f***. Hundreds of thousands of Irish volunteered and worked for the British in one war or another. I made the following points which I note you cannot disagree with either:

.

The British would not have invaded us as

(a) they would have greatly annoyed America, on whom they depended heavily in many ways

(b) there would have been guerilla war against them

(c) they were more than busy / tied up on other fronts.

As Roosevelt said, it was the Germans who we should have feared, and he was correct. They were the ones who bombed us, sunk our shipping, enslaved and put captured seafarers in concentration camps etc. Roosevelt was proved correct.

The British gave any Irish seamen a tot of rum and treated them well.

That is why hundreds of thousands of Irish helped the British in WW2.

You just let your anti-British hatred affect your judgement.