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Meanwhile on the Roads...

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    No, what's "a bit surprising" is that you somehow discovered the road traffic act 1997 and thought it might be a good idea to go online and lecture a bunch of people who have been cycling for decades on your interpretation of said road traffic act.

    It's also "a bit surprising" that you think your interpretation of said road traffic act hasn't been regularly regurgitated on this forum. It's been law for nearly 30 years now, have you arrived on a time machine?

    Finally it's "a bit surprising" that you think your interpretation of the nuances of cycling within the confines of the law survives contact with real humans who are regularly in fear of being maimed by people who are uninsured, disqualified etc. Forgive us for not worrying unduly about Karen needing to get the kids to training on time.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,054 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    If you are cycling appropriately, then there is no need to make the effort, it will appear when it is safe to do so. Don't get me wrong, there are times where I pull in and slow roll a layby to let traffic past, same as when I drive a tractor but there is no legal obligation to do so. But you have shown repeatedly that by cycling 3 abreast, riding effectively in the gutter, I am not sure I would chance an overtake if you were cycling in front of me because you sound unpredictable and therefore a danger to overtake.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol




  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    As you've been told a number of times, it does not make what you're claiming it does.

    To be honest, if you are as ill-informed as you appear to be and so entrenched in those ill-informed views then I really don't think you should be using the roads regardless of your mode of transport. I'd suggest that you ask someone for a lift to your nearest garda station and hand in your drivers licence!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    There was no issue in how most people cycle and share the roads with vehicle.

    You read something somewhere about some rule of the road and misinterpreted the law to create perceived issue.

    The misinterpretation was pointed out.

    You've continued to try and find an issue.

    There is no issue other than Lets All Argue About Whose Common Sense is Most Commonly Sensible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Macy0161


    Speaking as someone who lives in a rural community, so use rural roads daily predominantly in a motorised vehicle, they do in me bollocks.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    Can't believe how hard it is for some of us cyclists (and yes I'm also a motorist like so many cyclists) to accept that sometimes we have to make an effort to take up a position that allows others to overtake safely. It's not a big ask really. It's just worth remembering that we have duties as well as rights, like all vehicle drivers.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    put down the goalposts.

    we've been arguing about whether we are legally obliged to, not whether we can or should.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So now it is that cyclists are being unreasonable? Earlier, it was that we were not following a law (which you so far have been unable to provide).
    Which is it?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,856 ✭✭✭standardg60


    The only proviso where I see a point in the argument would be on a narrow road where a group of cyclists would need to go single file to allow approaching traffic to pass safely.

    That would imply the requirement to do similar for following traffic to do the same.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    You're overlooking my deliberate inclusion of "if possible". If it's not possible to make more space then great, no need to try.
    And if cycling two abreast allows an overtaker ample room to pass by safely with more than enough clearance to the outer rider then great, you've cycled in a manner that allows safe overtaking, so that's fine.
    You're right that I could have contemplated the latter situation instead of only mentioning the choice of going single file, when possible and safe to do so. No one's expected to do anything impossible or unsafe.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's fair; safer too. and probably what the law was originally designed to address. 'don't block the road' rather than 'cycle in the gutter'.

    i'd be curious about when the wording was first formulated.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    I am a cyclist too. How often do I have to paste it in again:
    "9.
     Save where otherwise required by these Regulations, a vehicle shall be driven on the left hand side of the roadway in such a manner so as to allow, without danger or inconvenience to traffic or pedestrians, approaching traffic to pass on the right and overtaking traffic to overtake on the right."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,815 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    I'm making it very easy for a car to overtake me by cycling on the correct side of the road and well below the speed limit.

    Pretty reasonable no?

    Now the driver of the 250hp Case last week,with triple mowers, way over the white line, on the phone, he could have pulled over a second. Reasonable? Or at least switched on Bluetooth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,448 ✭✭✭mattser


    Feel free to expand if you have an adult response



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you're welcome to respond to my response instead; to repeat it:

    what do you want them to do? string out into single file? if that's your preferred solution, instead of overtaking a group of 2 x 4 cyclists, say 15m long, you'll now have to overtake a group of 1 x 8 cyclists, now 30m long.

    but if you're safely able to overtake that 1 x 8 group, what was preventing you from overtaking the 2 x 4 group?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    to respond to this again, i think the only context where this law really has any effect is on narrow country lanes where two cars would have trouble passing each other. where a cyclist taking primary position would in fact block the road.

    i am reminded of a possibly slightly senile old curmudgeon who used to live near my parents in law who would cycle the narrow roads there; if he saw you and recognised you, he'd let you past. but if he didn't recognise you; the man had an ability to cycle as slowly as a track cyclist when he wanted to. and he'd stick to the middle of the road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    When the taxi's, trade vans and other a*seholes in BMW's stop trying to pass me the moment I move a ¼ of a metre to the left and push me into the kurb (whilst illegally using the bus lane I might add) just to get a minute ahead instead of just leaving 5 mins earlier and planning, then I might consider not taking the primary position as I do want to survive my commute.

    As a cyclist - your very friendly towards overtaking sh*tes who regularly put 8/9 cyclists in the morgue each year and injure (sometimes life changingly) approx 320 each year.

    Whilst cyclists just do a fraction of a percentage of that yet we are the problem…

    Most of the dangerous overtaking I get could be easily solved my automatic bus lane camera's. Should be a 500 euro fine and 4 penalty points.

    In terms of rural rodes - the same should apply towards overtaking on a solid white line.

    Edited to add

    Also I don't consider a bike a 'vehicle'. Our road laws and infrastructure is outdated and sh*t. There should be a completely different law for cyclists.

    My 'vehicle' is not a two tonn SUV which is so tall that I cannot see children and can kill someone going just 20 miles per hour (Am aware a bike can kill - just is extremely rare and since usually travelling at lower speeds you can identify hazards much easier and prepare to stop.

    The two should be treated completely differently.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,138 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    Are track cyclists not usually fast or am I missing the metaphor here?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    ever see them trackstanding? depending on the event, they can be trackstanding or cycling really slowly, eyeballing each other out of it before one lashes the power down.

    an example:



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,054 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    So the new goal post is, "if possible". So does safety still matter or where are we going with this? I mean, it is always possible, you can literally step into the ditch if you want. More importantly, in the context of internet discussions, not in the context of human safety or common sense, do you understand why people are not agreeing with you earlier.

    Two abreast will nearly always allow enough room to pass if it is safe to pass a single file cyclist, in the majority of situations. And before anyone replies, I said nearly.

    There are situations where going single file when a car comes up behind you will give them the impression it is safe to pass when it isn't, which is what you first implied we had to do by law (which, just to be clear, is not true).

    Long story short, life is nuanced, and common sense and road traffic law dictate you adapt to the conditions in as safe a way as possible, what the law does not say, anywhere, is you have to ride your bike as far left of the roadway as is possible to facilitate traffic that may or may not want to overtake you.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,054 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Track cycling, taking what should be a borrowing sport and making it interesting for over 100 years. Devil takes the hindmost is still one of my favourites.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    let's take an obvious and easy example; this is a road i cycle a fair bit, usually several times a week.

    https://maps.app.goo.gl/rgfVKydZbvojyeSc9

    the law does not state that i should stay as far left as possible. the law states i should stay in the left hand side of the roadway, and that allows for me to be anywhere between the dashed yellow line and the dashed white line in the middle of the road.

    if i am 50cm to the left of the dashed white line, i am still in my lane, and i am not preventing a safe overtake, so that does not fall foul of the law. it does not impede oncoming traffic, so it does not fall foul of the law. i am in the left hand side of the roadway, so that does not fall foul of the law.

    to perform a safe overtake performed by a motorist coming from behind, the oncoming lane must be empty; and if it is, the overtaking motorist can completely move out to the oncoming lane to safely complete the overtake. so my position in my lane has no bearing on preventing this safe overtake.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    So you're effectively confirming that you're ignoring pretty much every response to your claims today?

    In short, your understanding of the law is wrong - no ifs or buts about it.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    I agree. If that particular road is clear of oncoming traffic it looks like there would be enough space to overtake safely, so you'd have done your duty. (I presume the car would be able to give you the required amount of clearance?) Personally I'd probably choose to move a bit more left there as the road is in perfect condition and I'd feel it gives more space and margin for error to cycle further left; I'd feel safer but that's a matter of personal choice.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    but then that undermines totally your conclusion that you should keep as far to the left as possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    Fair point on my very first wording but it's probably just how I clumsily summarised what is the actual obligation to make space for legal overtakers. Instead of  "as left as possible" I'd refine to "as left as is needed, where possible." My own approach is to move as left as possible to allow the overtake but of course there's more than one way to fulfill the obligation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    No, I just disagree with anyone saying or implying that there is no legal obligation on me (or any other cyclist) to cycle in a way that allows other traffic to overtake safely, obviously without endangering myself). As you can see I have agreed with some people that my initial wording as to what it took to fulfill that duty wasn't the only way to do so; that was a more than reasonable argument for them to make.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    You've provided something better than my work for me to focus on today, and for that I applaud you



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 510 ✭✭✭Scrabbel


    Apologies for distracting you! Hope it doesn't make tomorrow harder.



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