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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed (Threadbans in OP)

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,052 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    As far as I know, they discovered early on that this DNA is not from Ian Bailey. The French were desperate to convict someone, and they took what the Gardaí gave them at face value.

    This bit of DNA was found by the French forensic team and I'm quite sure they wouldn't have overlooked a chance to clinch the case.

    If it had been Bailey DNA, it would have been impossible to explain away; and the case would have been closed long ago.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,097 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Would there be any link to this online?.

    Kinda surprised i cant find anything on it

    EVENFLOW



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,744 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    It's not even new news…

    This article is from 2021 and even then:

    A French forensic scientist uncovered the crucial new evidence 10 years ago after Irish detectives invited him to help out in the case in 2011.

    https://www.buzz.ie/news/bailey-pleads-inquiry-after-new-24154045

    And this is from 2018:

    Mr Bailey made the startling claim on Cork’s 96fm this morning, as he revealed he had to learn about the so-called “alien DNA” from the case file prepared by a French magistrate against him for a Paris-based murder prosecution.

    https://www.irishpost.com/news/ian-bailey-claims-alien-dna-found-scene-sophie-toscan-du-plantier-murder-west-cork-154454

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,744 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Some more information from The West Cork Podcast on the 'alien' DNA - it may not have come from blood:

    "In 2011 a French forensic scientist travelled to West Cork, at the invitation of An Garda Siochana, to take fresh samples from objects recovered from the crime scene... She took samples back to France and ran tests. All the blood tests showed only a female DNA profile, just as all the other UK and Irish tests had done over the years.

    But on a single sample - a swab of a whitish trace near the laces on Sophie’s left boot, they found something else. The DNA profile of an unknown male.

    We took the paperwork on these results to independent experts. They told us that this was the result of a contact trace sample taken to detect DNA from skin cells, sweat or any other secretions.

    They stressed that this is just a single sample from among many and that there are plenty of reasons it may have no evidential value in Sophie’s case. It might have already been on the boot prior to the attack, or it might be the result of contamination after the fact."

    "The [French] scientist was shown nine exhibit bags at Bantry garda station. As she later noted in her report all these bags were already opened."

    There's more information on this Reddit sub:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MurderAtTheCottage/comments/qbn23e/the_dna_on_sophies_boot/

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,621 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    It was closer to what we term touch DNA these days, than the original bodily fluid type traces. It is of note that the whitish trace was what drew them to the location, and it was the only other DNA found, so likely more than a simple brief touch.

    For sure could be unrelated to the murder, but it should be investigated and ruled out if so.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,197 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    DNA profiles can give information on personal characteristics. Eye colour, hair, medical conditions and ethnic background. I wonder have the persons of interest been screened with this in mind?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The alien DNA on the boot isn’t new news, but the fact they are going abroad to look for a match is new news. That’s why it’s in the news.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,744 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    What might also be noteworthy about the announcement to get international assistance in identifying the boot is that they've not announced the same need for help regarding any DNA found from the MVAC testing

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,910 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Well the DNA on the boot might not even have gotten onto the boot during the murder or it might. It's a 50-50 chance either way.

    Also, if the DNA would be blood and blood from the killer it would mean that the killer was injured at the time or during the killing of Sophie.

    That would most likely imply that Sophie fought for her life and there was a struggle, and that would hardly have been quiet. Quiet in the sense that Alfie and Shirley didn't hear anything….. So, lot's of ifs to consider as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,910 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I thought I remember it was a blood stain and the only thing which was clear is that it wasn't Bailey's.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,363 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,432 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Rip Shirley. Another life that was marred by this murder.

    I dont think Shirley was involved but perhaps she may have known more than what she said. A better to stay quiet on info than to speak out attitude - safer that way.

    I wonder if any info she had on the murder died with her.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,223 ✭✭✭rightmove


    never sat well with me the solo trip to the dump when someone was murdered so close to your house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭tibruit


    She didn`t go to the dump, so that`s a weight off your mind then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    A lot of people think it strange she continued her trip into town about 6 hours after finding Sophie's dead body, I don't. Ppeople can act strange when under traumatic stress like Shirley was that morning.

    I see Senan Molony is still spouting his baloney in the Indo this morning.

    EDIT; Paywalled, so a few bits:

    "Shirley and her partner, Alfie Lyons, appeared to pre-empt questions as to why they didn’t hear anything that night – when Sophie’s screams were heard by others a mile across the dark valley.

    "Alfie’s statement also puzzled investigators. He said they had not heard any “human noises” that night…..But a woman came forward years later and alleged she had been told by Shirley at the time that the couple heard the “signature” knock of Ian Bailey on the night of the murder."

    "The local informant, meanwhile, alleged that Shirley and Alfie were in bed when Bailey’s distinctive knock occurred, suggesting he wanted to party."

    "In evidence, Mr Lyons said he had hired Bailey for three days in June 1995 to clear his garden. He told a court: “I see Sophie du Plantier coming up to the house, as she invariably did when she arrived, just to say hello…………….“Bailey was working close by in the garden. And if somebody arrived into the house, up to the property, I would always introduce them to the person who was there with me………………”Shirley said last year: “Sophie came up. I was there in the background. As far as I know, they were all standing at the front door…………………….”She volunteered the name of handyman Leo Bolger, who told cold case investigators that he was an independent witness to the introduction.

    So people heard Sophie screaming a mile away?

    Alfie and Shirley heard Bailey's distinctive knock in the small hours? (Shirley denied this, but shur, leave it in anyway)

    So now we have 4 versions of the "introduction"

    Bailey's version; He was working in Alfie's garden in the lane between the two houses when Alfie pointed out Sophie, who he could see in her kitchen through her window.

    Alfie's version; Sophie had just arrived from France and came up to say hello, as she usually did whenever she came, and Alfie was 80/90% sure he introduced her to Bailey then. No mention of Leo Bolger being present.

    Leo Bolger's version; While Sophie was there on holidays he was working on the roof of her house. She had gone into town and he skived off to Alfie's for a cup of tea. When she returned she came up looking for Leo and he saw Alfie introduce Sophie and Bailey.

    Shirley Foster's version; She was in the background and she saw the 4 at the door, Sophie, Alfie, Bailey and Leo. They were talking and she assumed Alfie would have introduced them as that was what they would normally do. She remembered this only last year after 30 years when Molony doorstepped the 90 year old for another of his scoops.

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,910 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's hard to imagine that they didn't hear anything and the murder was completely quiet. It could have been, but still it's hard to imagine that.

    I always thought Shirley Foster moved back to England where she had family? Didn't know she actually stayed in the area?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,052 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    How far is the gate from the Lyon's house? I mean, as the crow flies, or as sound travels.

    You'd expect there would be shouting, especially if the attack escalated from a heated argument; but a woman who is being hit with a brick may not have much breath for calling out (sorry if too graphic)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,910 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's not too far. Maybe 300 meters, maybe 250? not certain? The road is winding a bit, so as the crow flies and sound travels is a better consideration.

    Regarding noise or heated argument, it's entirely possible she was hit unexpectedly from the back, and no sound at all or very little was made.

    However it's hard to imagine that Shirley and Alfie didn't hear anything even if sleeping, if there was a fight for her life, with screaming, - as one would expect in this case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 314 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    FFS so now there is a distinctive knock being heard from 300m away through bedroom windows?

    Just when you think you have heard all of the bizarre claims, something even more ridiculous comes along.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Just over 100 mtrs/116 yds. mid winter, so little foliage, Alfie's house on much higher ground, could be as much as 10 mtrs higher than the gate area

    gate to Alfies.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,744 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    A lot would depend on wind direction, and less likely to hear outside noises in winter than summer as you'd expect windows to be closed.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭tibruit


    It`s always advisable when you believe you`ve heard something ridiculous to think twice before you respond.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭flanna01


    That's the very first I've heard of Baileys distinctive knock in nearly 15,000 comments….

    It's comical to be fair..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 324 ✭✭Zola1000


    Yes that's best statement for you, it sums you up perfectly with your misinformation



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,432 ✭✭✭Deeec


    True but it looked like single glaze wooden framed windows on alfies house at the time. We had windows similar on our house - they didn't even keep the frost out let alone noise.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Bizarre alright, was he banging on the door with his "thinking stick" to Ludwig van's 5th or was he 'knocking on heavens door'?

    In fairness the distance from Alfie's to Sophie's back door is more like 50 mtrs.



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