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M6 - Galway City Ring Road [planning approved]

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,389 ✭✭✭Exiled Rebel


    Is it a case Jr's are announced as soon as they are lodged or only when the deadline has passed? If the former I get the feeling there won't be any.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,604 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Once again you're bringing nothing to the discussion other than your feelings and what looks like some paranoia about some organised effort to argue against this stupid plan. Have a look at the forum name buddy. "Roads" not "Galway". The only one looking for an echo chamber is yourself. Anyone for or against it should be outlining why. Couldn't give a fiddlers where they're from or which side they fall if they can back it up with more than their feelings from

    Thinking you gained some insight into improving traffic because you sit in it a lot is like thinking you've got plumbing figured out because you spend a lot of time sitting on the toilet



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 871 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/galway-ring-road-hits-new-stumbling-block-as-judicial-review-is-launched/a/154155317.html



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,819 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    I agree with everything except:

    When I can finally drive around the city instead of wasting an extra 45-60 mins in peak time

    The councils own submissions show that ring road will eventually make congestion worse as it will allow for much more car centric housing development, 10 years after opening city traffic will be even worse than it is now.

    If you were told the ring road would solve all traffic problems in the city, you've been sold a pup. Only denser forms of transport can solve this problem of too many people going to same destinations (parkmore, newcastle, city centre, salthill)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,429 ✭✭✭Westernview


    Is there anything to be said for another road Ted? I thought the last congested one went very well.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    As expected really. Wouldn't be surprised to see someone else launch one as well, there's still time.

    Note that I haven't read the article as it's paywalled for now.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭remfan


    Not sure how accurate this is but anyway. Legal filings submitted by environmental groups, including Friends of the Irish Environment (FIE), are currently attempting to overturn the decision. The legal challenges target several specific aspects of the proposed 18km orbital route: 

    • Climate Targets: Plaintiffs argue the project violates national climate objectives by locking in fossil fuel reliance and increasing urban sprawl. 
    • Transportation Viability: Critics allege that alternatives like BusConnects and sustainable active travel corridors were dismissed without sufficient legal justification.
    • Procedural Flaws: The groups are seeking to invalidate the An Coimisiún Pleanála (An Bord Pleanála) approval on the grounds that it failed to align with the Climate Action Plan.

    Despite the judicial review, Galway County Council has moved forward with issuing Compulsory Purchase Orders (CPO) to acquire land along the proposed route, though the legal proceedings will dictate whether main construction—currently targeted for 2028—can proceed without further delay



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,429 ✭✭✭Westernview


    I wouldn't be an expert but those look like fairly compelling arguments.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 706 ✭✭✭Aontachtoir


    Of course what happens in Donegal affects you, just less directly than if you lived there. We’re all the same country. It’s your tax money being spent in Donegal rather than a project in your locality, so you’d want to be sure it is being spent well. And if Donegal helps to blow our emissions targets and puts us in line for massive fines, guess what, your money will pay for that too, as will services in your area.


    @remfan Those sound like pretty solid grounds for a review. It will be very interesting to see what happens. I predicted a while back in this thread that this road would be the first project that the government uses its new infrastructure powers on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭remfan


    I feel sorry for the 54 families impacted by the CPOs, over 25 years in limbo and still not 100% sure what's coming. I hear that the council plan to meet with the various parties before it goes 100% legal and that the CPOs are going ahead anyway. Can anyone confirm this?



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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 15,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    This looks like an AI generated summary of the previous JRs.

    The new JR is by 2 local residents. There may be other JRs on the way from the usual suspects.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Dr Robert


    AI dump. I don't even read them tbh



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭remfan


    it was a summary from a google search on the news today, looks like even basic searches are now AI generated in all of the search engines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭remfan


    sadly you will be seeing AI everywhere, will impact virtually all jobs etc. Soon we won't be able to tell what is AI generated and what is not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭remfan


    One of the JRs is from a local couple adjacent to the N59, I believe their home is very close to the route but may not be under a CPO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭bored65


    well yeh it’s sorta kinda hard to cross the river now

    It’s like wondering why a a body that was shot in the head doesn’t move anymore



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭Dr Robert


    Is there a way to see who the JRs are from?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    It'll all be public fairly soon. The courts don't move fast when this stuff is just starting out, it can take a week or so for it to appear in the court diary.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 15,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    So far there has been one JR reported in the media from Michael Kerin and Annette Kerin.

    No further JRs have been reported at this time but the window for JRs remains open.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 10,047 ✭✭✭✭SeanW


    Hardly - last I checked Ireland and or Europe writ large was planning a phase out of petrol and diesel powered cars. For that reason, the idea that a road not due to open for, what I would guess to be at least 10 years from now, will cause more fossil fuel dependency or carbon dioxide emissions, is a stretch, at best.

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,429 ✭✭✭Westernview


    That depends on how the submission is framed. EVs cleaner than fossil fuel powered cars - absolutely. EV cleaner than public transport and active travel - absolutely not. Given that there has been little or no attempt to show how the road will integrate with public transport or reduce congestion in the city centre it's easy to see plenty of cracks in the case for the road.

    However thats not to say that submission will be made on these points at this stage. But the points still stand.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 15,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Yes but going forward it can be argued that the Climate Act emissions angle for JRs can be rendered moot by Government policy to make vehicles emission free at the point of use


    As for the cleaner than PT/AT argument - Irish people do like their cars, and I don’t think they would be willing to give up their lifestyles on the basis of efficiencies.

    Also there was an election in Galway 10 days ago and it’s hard to find a compelling mandate for anti-car measures in the results.

    (Even the leftie that came top of the leftie charts issued a press release welcoming the Ring Road decision - which would seem at odds with the party position on roads)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 91 ✭✭remfan


    that’s their 3rd JR then, in the past they raised issues such as stress, air pollution and the destruction of the city etc. I assume if the new JR is along the same lines it won’t be entertained.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,429 ✭✭✭Westernview


    I refer to my previous comment. The EV emission reduction can be argued in its own terms but not favourably againt PT alternatives.

    Im not sure how much weight people liking their cars would carry in a JR either if its a climate related decision.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 15,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Of course - people liking their cars is irrelevant in a JR which would be an argument on a point of law.

    I was more referring to the clean nature of PT/its efficiencies vs car based travel as not being a significant factor in driving lifestyle change/transport habits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    This is the infrastructure forum. People here are generally not "YIMBY" or "NIMBY" in fairness, I've found most conversation here to be very balanced.

    There are however a number of users in this thread that I see on no other infrastructure threads. You can read between the lines there yourself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Regarding the CPO's, does anyone know if they're legal or can be challenged also? I'm thinking about potential further delays: how likely is it that someone will try and resist a CPO and drag it through the courts?



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,435 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    There's a chance that a CPO will go to court, but there's very little chance of it being successful, or of it delaying the project. CPO is a well established and documented law, with plenty of case law confirming that it is all sound. In fact, the last time I remember a CPO failing was at intel, where the IDA tried to CPO land next to the plant "just in case". The judge said that "just in case" wasn't a sufficient need, so tossed it, but a few years later, Intel and the IDA went back with an actual plan, and CPO'd that land just fine. There was a challenge to it again, but it sailed through the courts.

    As an aside, I spot a lot of people complaining about a JR without know what a JR actually consists of. I've attached a completely unrelated judgement from the head of the planning court, which lists out the 8 fold test for a JR to be successful. It's fairly dense, but is readable by a lay person. It is in this context that people should think about these JRs.

    Here's the guts of it, but there's more in the doc on the onus of proof, etc.

    These tests are cumulative, and relief should only be granted if the proceedings meet all of the following:
    (i) the applicant complies with jurisdictional requirements (e.g. time or standing to bring the proceedings at all (as opposed to standing for particular issues within a case that the applicant can bring at a general level));
    (ii) the applicant’s point is legally correct and workable;
    (iii) the applicant’s point is properly pleaded with the requisite specificity;
    (iv) the specific point is one that the applicant has standing to make (bearing in mind that while standing can relate to issues such as ius tertii it does not generally require prior participation in the process insofar as there is an EU/Aarhus Convention dimension);
    (v) material capable of sustaining the point was properly before the decision-taker at the relevant time such as to give rise to a duty to consider it (subject to exceptions primarily related to failure by the decision-taker to fulfil her autonomous obligations);
    (vi) the applicant has discharged the onus of proof to establish all facts necessary for
    relief;
    (vii) any error must transcend the harmless, the non-material and the purely technical lacking real-world consequences, bearing in mind that if error is demonstrated, then the onus shifts to the opposing parties to show harmlessness; and
    (viii) the exercise of discretion within established parameters does not militate against the making of the order (such as considering the proportionality of the order sought), bearing in mind that discretion is potentially more limited in an EU law context.

    Despite the perception, it is quite difficult to pass all of these.

    Speaking specifically about this case, the questions that I think are most likely to come up are:

    • Was ACP right to look at the entire GTS for climate mitigations, and not just the M6 Ring Road, and were the reasons given sufficient.
    • Was ACP right to dismiss induced demand, and it's effect on climate, and where the reasons given sufficient.

    Anything else does not have enough behind it, in my opinion. The JR, taken by the couple, probably doesn't have anything behind it other than "we don't like the impact it will have on us", which almost certainly isn't enough for a successful JR.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 15,097 Mod ✭✭✭✭marno21


    Looks like a second JR now showing up on the Courts website

    Local residents rather than the ecowarriors for this one also.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,127 ✭✭✭crusd


    An inconvenient truth that some fail to grasp is that people have essentially decided on individual transport above mass transport where at all possible. Roads in 25 years time will be dominated by AI controlled Autonomous / semi-automomous private or Uber type vehicles powered by electricity generated from renewable sources. Bypass and orbital routes are exactly what this scenario needs. With these then servicing hubs for entry to a vehicle restricted city centre areas.

    20th cenutry solutions are not what we need for the next 100 years.

    Be that driver centric with massive car parks and tailbacks, usually made far worse by bad drivers, or buses when what people consistently want is point to point private transport.#

    Your transport vehicle come 2050 will drop you to your location and park itself, or provide another ride, vastly reducing the need for parking tailored to drivers. AI will obtimise availalbe road space reducing journey times, and city centres, and in Galways case this would just be the old medieval centre effectively, will be the only place where mass transport is used to keep the streetscape for people.



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