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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed (Threadbans in OP)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Nothing you wrote counters my point. Perhaps you lived a sheltered life, it may or may not surprise you to know that there are probably tens, if not hundreds of thousands of children who grew up in homes with domestic violence in Ireland through the 90s and before.

    A murderer though, as the gardai said there hadn't been one in a hundred years in that area. Their lives were also screwed up a fair bit from the investigation, with one of Jules' daughters being brought in for extended questioning too. No way they thought he did it and lived with him. Doesn't mean he didn't do it of course, but they don't believe it, even with all of the subsequent evidence and confessions.



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 4,696 Mod ✭✭✭✭Ozymandius2011


    There were suggestions at the time that some of the corner cutting sometimes associated with the old "heavy gang" still existed in the Garda in the 1990's, and might have played a role in the botched investigation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    You`ve assumed that at least some of them would have known that he did it to begin with. I don`t think they did and from my perspective your whole argument is moot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    You've assumed he did it to begin with. I don't think he did. Your whole argument is moot.

    Until evidence leads somewhere it is best to have an open mind.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 307 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    When you get a minute, can you answer my question?

    Why was he not up writing any article?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "You`ve assumed he did it to begin with."

    Not to begin with, but after weighing up the available evidence.

    "I don`t think he did."

    That conclusion requires the highly improbable scenario that there was a conspiracy and collusion by multiple gardaí and multiple witnesses to fit up Ian Bailey.

    "Until the evidence leads somewhere…."

    The evidence does lead somewhere. You have to ignore it all to come to your conclusion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Because he was busy killing the French lady down the road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    The office of the director of public prosecutions would seem to disagree with you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    One thing does not necessarily lead to another. Incompetence and buffoonery can easily explain the circumstances of Bailey’s arrest even more so than conspiracy can attest his innocence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I’m not clear if you’re talking about the DV or the murder, but they found out sooner or later for both regardless. They still don’t believe he did it, and their opinion carries far more weight than yours imo.

    In fact if you can find someone who has gone on record from the area (not a Garda or journalist) to say he actually did do it that would be much appreciated. No libel involved any more, so no reason for anyone to hold back.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Incompetence and buffoonery can easily explain the circumstances of Bailey`s arrest…."

    Ah now. Justice Hedigan ruled that it would have been perverse not to arrest Bailey on the available evidence.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "They still don`t beleive he did it"

    Which makes your argument moot.

    "their opinion carries far more weight that yours"

    They have no idea where he was for several hours on the night of the murder so their opinion is based on belief, not fact.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Yes, exactly my point. Bailey turning up at the scene, and acting like a drunken buffoon in the subsequent weeks, along with an incompetent investigation that ruled everyone else out within days resulted in Bailey being the only suspect they could arrest.
    No conspiracy needed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    You no longer know what your point is. Turning up at the scene only made him a person of interest. He was arrested primarily because he was seen with scratches on his hands in the days after the murder, because a witness had seen him loitering outside her shop when Sophie came in on the Saturday before the murder and also at Kealfada on the night of the murder. I think he had also confessed to Malachy Reed before he was arrested. Further incriminating evidence came to light after the arrests.

    "No conspiracy needed"

    This statement makes no sense within the context of what I originally said. There are realistically only two scenarios. He is guilty or there was a conspiracy to pin it on him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    And who are you exactly to adjudge only two scenarios. The fact that you think this way indicates that you’re completely myopic.

    If Bailey hadn’t turned up at the scene and just stayed home writing about cyber cafes you’d never have even heard of him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "who are you to judge only two scenarios"

    That`s the number of scenarios a jury is asked to decide upon.

    "If Bailey hadn`t turned up at the scene and just stayed home writing about cyber cafes you`d never have even heard of him."

    That depends on whether you are talking about before or after the murder.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    A jury only consider one scenario, what are you blabbering on about. Not guilty does not require any explanation.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I think it is more that in titbruit's view, Bailey is guilty until proven innocent. Facts don't appear to be relevant to assigning guilt!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "Not guilty does not require any explanation"

    It clearly would in this case. I don`t blabber, nor have I lived a sheltered life as you earlier suggested. Debating logically can be a frustrating experience when one is confronted by conspiracy theorists. Anyone who argues that Ian Bailey is innocent of this murder must believe that Gardaí and witnesses conspired against him. That you and Seth Brundle have resorted to the lowest form of debate by insulting me, indicates the futility of your position.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Justice is logic, and the system we have only determines guilt or not guilt. The fact that the justice system didn’t even take it to trial should be the first indication that there may be more than reasonable doubt about his guilt. I have never said he is 100% guaranteed innocent, you seem to see everything as black or white. There is always a chance, and that is why he is a suspect in the first place. There were 50 suspects in fact, every one had some measure of potential.
    I am not a conspiracy theorist, I believe in incompetence far more than malice. Trying to force others to agree to your ridiculous assertion of only 2 scenarios is a much lower form of debate I’m afraid.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    That you and Seth Brundle have resorted to the lowest form of debate by insulting me, indicates the futility of your position.

    erm, I did not insult you.
    Only yesterday you stated that "he was busy killing the French lady down the road" despite absolutely no evidence of this. There is not one shred of evidence pointing towards this claim. You have deemed Bailey guilty of murder without evidence and then take offence when someone calls you out on it 🙄

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I would appreciate it if you wouldn`t mess about with my username. You may get away with your "no evidence" nonsense on this thread but the last time you took it to one of the other crime threads you got short shrift.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    "I believe in incompetence far more than malice."

    One of the primary requirements for Ian Bailey being innocent of this murder would be that Jules Thomas`s statement had added interpolations. Would that amount to incompetence or malice?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,021 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    I have no skin in this game. Im fascinated by the case and im open to anything.

    Can I ask you though what evidence do you know of that suggests that he is guilty without doubt?

    EVENFLOW



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,636 ✭✭✭tibruit


    As night follows day, anytime I contribute to a thread you turn up. How does one manage to insert a "t" between "i" and "b"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,037 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    I do, in fact, think that the Gardai "conspired against" Mr Bailey.

    Not in the form of "let's frame him" - I have no doubt that they believed they were doing the best job possible, to try and catch a killer. More likely in the form of "it could have been him " (true) and "can we dig up some evidence to confirm such a theory?" Sadly for them, they did not find any such evidence.

    Sadly for Bailey, the investigation was conducted by inexperienced officers; who gave over, in turn, to a group of heavy-handed detectives who found, during the 1990's, that bullying tactics worked faster than painstaking forensic work.

    And if the results were less than reliable? Well, they didn't care, back then.

    Sure, it could have been Mr Bailey, at a pinch. It could have been any of half a dozen men, at least. There is no clear indication pointing towards any one person. Though the tyre tread-mark and the open gates do, at least, suggest a vehicle was used.

    (No trace of blood was found on or in the car used by Bailey and Ms. Thomas)

    I like to think that our Irish police are, in general, honourable and ethical. But I'd never be so naive as to imagine that they are immune to news headlines, or incapable of jumping to conclusions based on flimsy theories.

    This Cold Case Review appears to be much more steady and focussed than the original investigation was. Sifting every scrap of data, reviewing every interview.

    I continue to hope that they will reach a conclusion that accords with justice and the truth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,593 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I have no idea what was going through either Jules or the Garda’s mind during the interview, or what exactly they said, just a short statement from hours of discussion. and we have no recording of it, so much like almost every other case in history there are two sides to the story, he said she said. False memories false confessions, who knows. It’s easy to just pick and choose one thing out and say that the s the truth, but you don’t know that it’s the truth. It’s a fact but that doesn’t mean it’s the truth.

    I don’t believe either of them know what happened next, or tbh whether it actually happened at all. I actually don’t really believe either of their opinions much. No malice required.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,974 ✭✭✭✭Oscar_Madison
    #MEGA MAKE EUROPE GREAT AGAIN


    “This Cold Case Review appears to be much more steady and focussed than the original investigation was. Sifting every scrap of data, reviewing every interview.”

    Whilst I hope they are, given it was reported that Bailey was about to be arrested before his death, I’m really not sure what this cold case review is achieving. If it’s focused purely on Bailey then it’s been a complete waste of time and tax payers money.
    DNA analysis appears to have struck a dead end - I couldn’t see them keeping quiet if they found Baileys DNA on her shoe/clothing.
    As many have said, a confession or eyewitness testimony or DNA are likely the only ways this case will get solved.



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