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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Cetyl Palmitate


    To play devils advocate, what if the proposal was refined along the lines of hiviz mandatory on a road with no footpath and speed limit greater than or equal to 60kmh.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    …and then what? In what other ways could a vulnerable road user protect themselves from the danger on our roads i.e. a large fast moving metal box? It is pure victim blaming because pretty much nothing else is being suggested aside from this mandatory hi-viz nonsense.

    What the councillor is saying is that people driving around a bend are taken by surprise at someone in particular clothing. Is he under the belief that once pedestrians are wearing hi-viz, then there won't be any more collisions and if not, why not? To my knowledge he hasn't once suggested that people drive more carefully, especially on bends. He sees the visibility issue at the hands of the person who has no involvement in the control of the vehicle.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    Let's go with that.

    You need to carry hi-vis for everyone in a car. 5 per car. And they'll need to be worn most of the time while driving, because otherwise how do you get out of the car without breaking the law if the car breaks down? And obviously a special baby-sized hi-vis for babies in the car. Or an exemption for children under a certain height. So maybe task the gardai with having measuring tapes for height exemptions.

    School buses will need 60 vests. And they'll all need to be worn at all times too.

    And public buses are more fun, because if someone gets off the bus wearing the hi-vis that leaves room for someone to get on, and what if there's no hi-vis for them when the bus breaks down? So you need a near endless supply for public buses. Which is fine but the loading times will increase significantly if you wait for everytone to get their vest on, making bus journeys much slower/worse.

    Or….and this is just an idea….we could enforce the existing rule that says drivers must drive to the conditions and be able to stop in the space they see in front of them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 702 ✭✭✭Cetyl Palmitate




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,883 ✭✭✭JMcL


    Don't read the comments!

    I had to. They don't disappoint!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,183 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    When did we lose the ability to use common sense? Where's the evidence and data to say that there is a disproportionate number of pedestrian deaths/ injury on roads with no footpaths and 60kmph speed limits? Off the top of my head there were two pedestrians killed in car parks in the past year.

    And why the obsession with regulating the ability of vulnerable road users to use the roads, when at the same time the biggest danger on the roads and the sector with the highest number of casualties, is resolute against any attempt to bring in regulation or anything that might change their behaviour on the roads?

    What if your suggestion came in - who's going to police that? Who's going to prosecute it? All while at the same time as ignoring the speeding motorists, and phone using drivers on the same stretches of road? Because if you can't police that new rule then it does nothing more than undermine the respect of legislation. AND if you can't police existing laws around motor use of the roads then it stands to logic that you sure as hell won't be able to police new ones. Unless of course there is a concerted effort to target compliance by the one sector of road user that is responsible for minimal destruction of roads, minimal harm to the environment, minimal financial cost to the tax payer and minimal death/ injury to other road users.

    In short - any argument for mandatory hi viz use is moral cowardice, click bait journalism, populist politics or pure old fashioned ignorance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,819 ✭✭✭CR 7


    It's clear that the real objective of this proposal and the occasional calls to make cycling helmets mandatory, is to make it less attractive and thereby remove pedestrians and cyclists from "their" roads so they can drive around without facing the inconvenience of accommodating other more vulnerable road users.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 860 ✭✭✭p15574


    Maybe if we turned it on its head and had laws like the Netherlands that apportions the blame to the motorist automatically. Even if the cyclist/pedestrian is completely at fault, the motorist is still attributed 50% of the blame. Perhaps it might make motorists slow down and, for once, be always on the look out for the unexpected around the next corner, or in the dark on a country road.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,883 ✭✭✭JMcL


    Certainly not a lawyer, but I remember discussion of this sometime back. It may have been relating to UK law, but that's effectively the same thing as we both use common law and have the notion of habeas corpus which doesn't exist in Dutch (Napoleonic) law. I think the issue of holding motorists accountable by default unless they can prove otherwise is that it's contrary to this. Then again it could be just some lazy excuse to do nothing because it suits the masses (hello shot down 1.5m passing law)



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    No surprises in description although I've not listened to the podcast...

    https://www.irishtimes.com/podcasts/in-the-news/why-aggressive-drivers-are-stopping-irish-women-cycling/

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Macy0161


    Notwithstanding the other excellent rebuttals, the RSA collision data published this week for cyclists was 81% of serious injuries happened in daylight, 83% on straight roads. They obviously haven't gone further on this, but I'd suspect if you had a look at phone use it would also be in in daylight and straight roads - "sure it's bright and I'm on a straight, time to check insta!"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Yeah, it absolutely astounding the lack of any meaningful, scientific/ peer reviewed data analytics referenced/ cited by the numpties who spout on about the need for measures targeting vulnerable road users.

    It's almost as though people don't actually care.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,054 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lets not forget there was a year not that long ago where in regards every cyclist death that I knew of bar one (where I didn't have the detail) was wearing a Hi Vis.

    I have started to drive more in the last year and have not once struggled to see a pedestrian or a cyclist at night, there were hands up times I wasn't sure at a distance what it was, but I knew it was something. Several had nothing. I am not saying I agree with not having anything, that's a different discussion but the truth is, the issue isn't pedestrians, it is motorists not understanding what drive to the conditions means.

    Only yesterday morning I was approaching a roundabout, my approach road was higher than the one to my right. I had judged the distance and speed of the approaching car, I would have been on the roundabout before they even got there but the speed and lack of even letting of the accelerator gave me pause. I have no interest in being right while 6 foot under. I slowed and stopped before they even made it to the roundabout. Straight through, head in phone, didn't even glance up. I'd have probably made it through but if they had hit me, money down that despite my beautifully flamboyant gear, my lights, some muppet would have scarred my family by claiming it was my fault for not wearing a Hi Vis builders jacket.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Macy0161


    Even the Prime Time piece on it, had a road engineer talking about redesigns before they had (the excellent) person from stoproaddeaths.ie talking about enforcement and accountability! Then waffle from a politician without proper commitments to enforcement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,392 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    I think there's definitely an element of cognitive dissonance there - recognising facts that indicate a problem; not wanting to ask for the best solution because it might adversely impact you; looking for a cheap and easy alternative that can be packaged up as a solution; and then convincing yourself that you've done all you can to try and avoid the harm.

    "Shur lookit, we built them cycle paths and gave them free hi viz, and we're calling for bans on ebikes and compulsory helmets - we've done all we can!"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 290 ✭✭khamilton


    It's definitely not habeaus corpus, which is solely about unlawful detention (so wouldn't apply to civil law)


    There's nothing in common law or the constitution that says you can't assign civil liability on a statutory basis based on clear criteria. The presumption of innocence only goes so far as "You must prove that the act, as set out by relevant legislation, happened" - so if motorists were automatically found to be 50% civilly liable simply for being involved in a collision, the presumption of innocence only goes as far as "proving on the balance of probability that the collision happened and the accused was the driver".


    Generally, when the law is blamed for some positive change not being able to be brought in, it's an excuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,883 ✭✭✭JMcL


    This totally. I was coming out of work a few years ago and the exit is downhill onto a large roundabout on a dual carriageway, so can hit it at a fair speed. I wasn't dressed in the accepted notion of "hi-vis" (bright sunny day, so that'd be more camo than anything) but was in very bright red kit. I'd always take it handy enough regardless as I don't trust drivers, but lad coming from left seemed to be making eye-contact to the extent he was looking straight at me. Was he f**k. Drove straight onto the roundabout and had an extreme look of surprise at the bellow in his window when I'd managed to change course.

    So often even if they haven't got their nose stuck in a phone, they're looking, but just not seeing. There's no excuse for it as like yourself I've no problem seeing peds/cyclists in the dark - even the dreaded ninja cyclists with "no lights or hi-vis Joe", and my eyesight is very far from 20-20



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 56,277 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i nearly did hit a cyclist at night a few years back, pulling out of a minor junction onto a bigger road; the junction was rural, completely unlit, and the cyclist (a teen dressed all in black) was also unlit; i simply didn't see him even though i did definitely look left and right.

    but the funny thing is, even if he'd been wearing hi-vis, i almost certainly wouldn't have seen him because my headlights were pointing nearly directly across the road, rather than along it. so (yet again) lights FTW.

    tbh i have to hand it to the guy, his eyes or navigational skills must have been akin to a bat, to be able to cycle on a road like that in the dark.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,054 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Also the strict liability in the Netherlands isn't exactly as portrayed in the media.

    It's 100% with the motorist is they are 100% to blame or the cyclist is a child.

    It's a maximum of 50% to the cyclist if they are in anyway to blame. So if a cyclist is 10% to blame, they pay 10% of costs, until it goes over 50% to blame, which is quite rare but can happen, at which point they pay 50%.

    If however it is deemed the motorist was in no way at fault, it falls to the cyclist, although this is rarely mentioned as the number of times that the motorist is in no way to blame is a statistical blip.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,304 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    Discussing the Dutch cyclist first streets approach on NT. Ciaran Cuffe: "you only have to look at your local neighbourhood facebook group to see the rage between cyclists and motorists"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 745 ✭✭✭ARX


    TBH I don't see that rage on the road. The odd gobshite yes, but not rage. Maybe it's a Facebook thing. I don't know, I've never used it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,304 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    I guess we are further ahead than Oz https://www.abc.net.au/news/2026-05-24/active-transport-cycling-bikes-cities-safety/106710436

    Like the creation of the footpath to separate pedestrians, Haworth says installing the ubiquitous painted bike lanes on roads was as much about ensuring bike riders “weren’t actually slowing down and interfering with the traffic” as it was about safety.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    Very American, ban walking:

    Metlife Stadium, New Jersey which is due to hold the FIFA World Cup final. "Walking to metlife is illegal because you’d have to cross multiple lanes of highway to get to the stadium from any direction."

    Metlife Stadium.jpeg

    A Product of Broken Urban Design - just ban walking : r/UrbanHell



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 46,218 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Julia Hartley-Brewer on UK Talk TV doesn't like to discuss cycling 🤣

    Around 2:48:45 (video won't embed)...

    https://youtube.com/live/u77jlHWGfFM?is=SxP8w-_L_Bfxlr6P

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,729 ✭✭✭Large bottle small glass




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    Nice, interesting and historical article. Thanks for posting. Alarming quote "One in 25 boys cycle to school in Ireland, but just one in 250 girls do" yikes. More encouragement needed like with some of the below.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,455 ✭✭✭Dr_Colossus


    What a dope, how's she on any sort of broadcast just talking over the guest speaker. Where's the impartiality or just ability to interview and present the piece.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,512 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    Not journalism but still thought yous'd like it



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,506 ✭✭✭fat bloke


    RTE seem happy to report on the Giro for blokes but no mention at all that I saw of Lara Gillespie bagging herself a couple of second places and leading the points classification. 🙄

    Maybe she should take up camogie.



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