Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

agree with the sentiment it's a choice to keep the tunnel in discussion. The general population/politicians don't understand the operational challenges of mixing services in a tunnel, they do like the notion of an intercity train straight into the city centre or to the airport.

Im just speaking from the experiences of myself and anyone I know from Limerick, Cork and Ennis. Never heard any complaints about Heuston being too far from O'Connell St.

It's a quick Luas or fully bus lanes trip down the quays. It's a non issue from what I can see when it comes to intercity.

I assume if you are getting the N2 you are doing what would be an unusual trip which wouldn't be the basis for large infrastructure especially when you consider that as you say there is a coach that does that job already.

Who is doing Cork to Belfast or the reverse?

If there was demand there, somebody would be running it as a bus route, right?

With regard to the CDCT, I know a lot of people are saying it’s ignorance and stupidity that are fuelling the ‘intercity’ idea, but I wonder (to give them the benefit of the doubt…) is it a clever ploy from IÉ to make the idea of the tunnel, FourNorth, and the airport link more attractive…?

It can all be billed as one project which has the “potential” to connect the rest of the intercity network to the airport (a concept people seem to obsess over so much it seems) but then once built, only ends up being used for DART trains, which run at such a high frequency from the get-go that it becomes “impossible to fit intercity trains in.”

There may also be the possibility that they are taking about building a four-track tunnel under Dublin, with fast lines with no stations, and slow lines with stations, which definitely seems like complete and utter overkill, would still be better that the option we’re thinking.

I know it’s a stretch, but maybe is there a way that IÉ know well what a bad idea pathing intercity trains through a tunnel that’s running a high frequency DART service. I mean they are focussing so much on segregating intercity and DARTs at the moment with DART+ and FourNorth - and even in places where it’s arguably overkill, like adding four tracks all the way to Portarlington - that it would seem totally bipolar to suggest running intercity trains and DARTs through a two-track tunnel.

Maybe, just maybe, Iarnród Éireann are finally realising how to get the public, government, and rural politicians sold on these national critical infrastructure projects that seem Dublin-centric…

For me, the fact that Aircoach doesn’t bother to run a direct Cork to Belfast service skipping Dublin, despite having depots at both ends and doesn’t bother to even sell through tickets, shows that there is ver little demand.

I actually had this thought earlier today, but in my case it would be getting the 700/702 from South Dublin and switching to the 705x in Dublin Airport. Its around the same time for me compared to the typical dart/bus & train combo, but would technically be more convenient door to door. You would have to hope the bus timings line up for an easy interchange, however. Looking at pricing, it would be 30 euro with Aircoach in total, so same price as the 1st class on the enterprise pretty much.

What I keep coming back to in all of this discussion is Spencer Dock. The sub-par plans for the new surface Dart station will be regretted for decades. In my opinion, the poor forward planning here (perhaps intentional, since the issues were well flagged in pre-planning reports) was the nail in the coffin for a rail tunnel.

• No provisions for supporting a future tunnel. It has been made clear that mining a station later will not be possible, without provisions put in now. Adding one (at least directly under the proposed station) will require the station to be rebuilt.

• The current plans include sufficient foundations to support a landmark OSD (over-station development), so I don't see a re-build ever happening. Also, once that station is open and acts as a new terminus station, it will be extremely challenging to consider closing it temporarily (3-5yrs..)

• Only 4 platforms to be built at the new Spencer Dock station. This is extremely short sighted. The available space is wider than Heuston, which supports 8 platforms. Even in the absence of a tunnel, a larger station would be much better placed than Connolly to connect multiple services

• Only a single track connection to the Northern line. Granted, this is an easier "fix", but clearly they have no intention of enabling Dart, Commuter or IC trains from the Northern line to terminate at Spencer Dock

Does anyone have a link to the Spencer Dock plans/illustrations? Thanks.

It’s worth bearing in mind that when DART Underground (DART-U) was first mooted, there were no plans to reopen the Phoenix Park Tunnel (PPT). The PPT is now a major part of the proposed DART+ network and I do wonder how that has affected the business case for DART-U. 

 As we know, DART+ will deliver three DART lines:

• Drogheda – Bray/Wicklow (w. shuttle service to Howth from Howth Junction)
• Maynooth – Connolly/Docklands
• Hazelhatch – Docklands/Heuston

Metrolink also added for illustrative purposes:

If one now adds the DART-U line into this, you get the two criss-crossing DART lines as originally planned (I’m assuming a southern extension of Metrolink to Sandyford will also be built during this time, along with a DART 1 branch from Clongriffin to the Airport):

• DART 1: Drogheda – Hazelhatch (via DART-U)
• DART 2: Maynooth – Bray/Wicklow

However, you are also left with a third line (DART 3) going through the PPT. This service is left somewhat stranded by the construction of DART-U. One possibility could be to alternate services between DART-U and PPT. But if you do that, you are not maximising the use of the (very expensive) DART-U tunnel. Possibly one way of “sweating the asset” might be to provide for Intercity or Regional services in the DART-U tunnel?

Personally, I much prefer reconfiguring the lines so that DART-U and PPT create a high frequency Circle Line (with alternating Drogheda-Hazelhatch and Circle Line services using the DART-U tunnel), including an additional station at the mouth of the PPT for the Phoenix Park and the Zoo:

As an aside, I also suggest a second Metrolink line from Tallaght to Howth Junction (and possibly onwards to Howth using the DART line, thus eliminating the Howth Shuttle and restoring a direct Howth – City Centre link) along with extending Metrolink 1 from Swords to Rush:

If money was no object, you could have a quad-tracked DART-U line, with one line for DART and one for Intercity and Regional Services:

This would open up the possibility of creating a faster Regional service for much of the Leinster commuter belt with access to the west, south and northern districts of the city centre for all services:

Just my 2c.