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Clampdown on TV 'Dodgy Boxes'

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,815 ✭✭✭tigger123


    Whats the technical solution?

    And why does legislation matter, if there is a technical solution?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭jmcc


    A programme based approach based on what people want to watch. At the moment, the market is highly fragmented and the solution would have to work in multiple jurisdictions.

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 64 ✭✭WoopWooWoo


    they’ve been trying to shut down the guys with a hook for a leg and eye patch for the last 20 years. Still getting no where.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Much, much longer than that. But the Irish media would be largely unaware of that.

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    The technical solution involves making it harder for the end user, making it more hassle than it's worth.

    Things like making common, cheap off the shelf devices less compatible with unauthorized apps.

    Better traffic analysis to identify and block illegal streaming traffic at ISP level, including restricting what users can do with ISP owned equipment.

    There is no technical silver bullet, just ways to frustrate users.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 660 ✭✭✭rayman10


    Why would an ISP do that?

    We would just switch to starlink or something else that untethers us from Irish suppliers.

    Why would a company start making their hardware less compatible with unauthorized apps?

    Again people would just buy off somebody else.

    There will always be workarounds. Just look at escooters, they are limited to 20kph when you buy in the shop but you just go on YouTube to see how to map the limit out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    Amazon already have started doing it by restricting apps on their devices.

    ISPs make devices like routers less configurable for end users to make them easier to use by the end user and so that there are other functionality they can sell as a add on.

    Plus a locked down device saves on support calls from inexperienced users messing up.

    Some ISPs are also multinationals that have skin in game like Sky or Vodafone in some markets.

    Remember the vast majority of illegal streaming users are not tech savvy, they would be far less inclined to buy a Chinese brand android device than a name that they trust like Amazon or Google.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 660 ✭✭✭rayman10


    What are you on about inexperienced users messing up?

    I've had many ISP's over the years and it's always just been plug and play. I've never really heard of anybody ringing ISP's for support other than basic troubleshooting.

    I'm sure if Amazon or Google get too precious some other trusted brand will just sell an unblocked device.

    You seem to be dreaming up some sort of scenario here which would require a lot of buyin from legitamite parties.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭dubrov


    It doesn't matter what technical solution they put in place. Once the video is output to a tv it can be rebroadcast without restrictions.

    Sky would need their own TVs to protect the signal end to end and that isn't going to happen.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭Genghis


    In an IPTV future I imagine there would be a way to embed within a stream an identifier which is linked to a unique subscriber. Would be non predictable, algorithmic, dynamic, etc, something that cannot be stripped out, possibly comprised thousands of micro variations embedded within video, audio and data.

    If Sky had this, and then monitor IPTV links for multiple simultaneous streams from one subscriber (something they could effectively do within their own ISP, since it would only need 2 or 3 non VPN users across a large user base to betray the stream) they could be very disruptive by continually stopping subscriptions they can see are being replicated.

    This is not going to be possible while they still use satellite broadcast; as I assume a genuine subscription via satellite is what is ultimately used currently to generate and replicate illegal streams which are then distributed globally.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,644 ✭✭✭✭machiavellianme


    Sky already have their own Tvs (sky glass) and have been trying to foist it on the consumer for years now.

    Save boards.ie by subscribing: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭jmcc


    I don't recall explaining it to you. I simply said that it was programme based.

    Post edited by jmcc on

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43 OnDeBanks


    This is a good podcast on proper dodgy boxes. Stick to reputable manufacturers!

    SuperBox – Darknet Diaries



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,786 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Good point, if they could link the video output to an account, they could terminate that account at a time of maximum impact, or even better intermittently throttle the steam making the service look terrible.

    It wouldn't stop smaller private suppliers but there are very few of those.

    Ending satellite would be difficult, particularly when there are tens of channels globally broadcasting the games live



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Possibly. It was early after a long night (Windows recovery and a failed harddrive) and I thought you were replying to my post about a technical solution that applied at a programme level rather than at a channel/tier level.

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭jmcc


    The different delivery channels make a single solution difficult because they cover satellite, IPTV and also cable TV. There was an option in the old VideoCrypt system used by Sky before it went digital with VideoGuard. Essentially, the system could send a message to each smartcard to display its id number onscreen. That was, for a time, used by Sky and FACT to identify pubs and other venues potentially showing Sky using a domestic rather than a business subscription. As regards embedding identifying data in a decrypted broadcast, that would be trivial with a satellite TV broadcast. There are some patents on video watermarking that deal with it.

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Manc-Red_


    Champions League Tonight

    IMG_7196.jpeg IMG_7213.jpeg IMG_7214.jpeg

    Enjoy

    Better Born Lucky Than Rich.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Manc-Red_


    There’s a load of South American cup games on tonight - if anyone needs them just DM me

    Better Born Lucky Than Rich.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,485 ✭✭✭Genghis


    Interesting re how easy it is to watermark satellite broadcast. So IP and satellite can be controlled, potentially (maybe some forms of cable could be too?)

    Why do Sky persist with a distribution model that involves generic feeds when they potentially have a way to protect themselves?

    (Before anyone replies, I am aware content that Sky broadcasts is broadcast by non Sky broadcasters too so Sky acting alone will only achieve so much; I am just interested in seeing where a future solution for rights holders might come from)



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    I am just interested in seeing where a future solution for rights holders might come from

    You won't get an honest debate on that here.

    The majority here believe the future solution for the rights holders is everything for max €15 a month.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,303 ✭✭✭54and56


    Amazon restricting their Firesticks is an outlier and not an indication of what any other equipment manufacturers will do as Amazon are themselves a content streaming comapny via their Prime video service.

    Hardware only manufacturers have zero motivation to self restrict the market they can sell to by in any way restricting what their hardware can do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,037 ✭✭✭jj880


    Its been said many times targeted packages would work. E.g. All Manchester United's games or F1 only.

    The longer Pay TV providers insist on bundling multiple sports together at inflated prices (often split across multiple subs) the more piracy will continue to grow.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Sky has distribution contracts and a considerable investment in hardware. Some of it is due to Sky's legacy position as the gatekeeper for Irish and UK satellite TV. If any service wanted to broadcast to the Irish and UK market via satellite, the only realistic option was Sky's playform because that's where the customers were. RTE being RTE decided on an incompatible system on another slot. If anyone wanted Saorsat, they needed more hardware. It theoretically gave them more control but I think that there is an RTE/Virgin feed on Astra and it probably has more viewers than Saorsat.

    Cpmpared to satellite broadcasts, IP data is much more problematic because the location (country) of an IP address can esaily be changed. If there is a VPN involved, the location is a bit more difficult to resolve. Embedding a watermark with the subscription identifier is one approach that might work. The problem is in identifying the feeds and subscriptions used.

    The main problem for broadcasters and cable companies has been packaging channels in tiers. Many of the programmes won't get watched. A programme approach (almost Pay Per View or more precisely Pay Per Programme) would be a better approach but it would completely up-end the current market. Apart from the legal issues (multiple jurisdictions and rights areas), it would require rights holders to cooperate. Standardising the platform would be tricky. (I had some arguments with the people championing DVB back in the day because there was one potentially lethal vulnerability in the approach.) the replacement version was supposed to be more hardware focusted to make the Conditional Access Modules (CAM) less likely to be emulated in software.

    Post edited by jmcc on

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,969 ✭✭✭Benedict XVI


    F1 is on Sky because F1 know that they can make more money by selling the rights in places like the UK, Germany and Ireland to a broadcaster than selling to the customer like they do in other countries.

    Take it up with F1.

    If you want all Man Utd and only Man Utd games then tare down the EPL structure as it has existed for 34 years, where media rights have been bundled.

    Take it up with the EPL.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,903 ✭✭✭jmcc


    You are less likely to get any serious coverage in the non-specialist media because most of those writing about it have no expertise or background in Conditional Access Systems. It is a specialised subject.

    Regards…jmcc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭Manc-Red_


    Games on tonight for those interested

    IMG_7215.jpeg IMG_7253.jpeg IMG_7254.jpeg IMG_7255.jpeg IMG_7256.jpeg IMG_7257.jpeg

    Enjoy

    Better Born Lucky Than Rich.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,780 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    A lad in a blue Sky top appears in this video which features Paul Murphy. I can't figure out if he is supporting or opposing Murphy. Clear view at around 2 minutes 55.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,338 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    I am no fan of Murphy, but jez, some scumbags on that video.

    BBTW, Its not a sky top, its a republic of Ireland top.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 24,780 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    People on the thread say that there would be a popular uprising if Sky goes after end users. And it would influence how hundreds of thousands would vote in a general election. The good news is that there is an Irish party in favour of piracy. Other countries also have them.

    https://users.pirates.ie/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirate_Party_Germany

    https://www.muso.com/blog/internet-piracys-double-standards-a-case-in-question



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