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Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Cross-border review of rail network officially launched

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 328 ✭✭Ronald Binge Redux


    The 'they are experts, they know best' argument shuts down any real conversation on this board. We might as well just publish NTA decisions uncritically on this board and leave it at that. Patronising responses to anything outwith NTA policy creates a weird zero-sum environment on a discussion board.

    Navan - Drogheda isn't an either/or to Navan - M3 Parkway. It isn't a bus replacement service. It's an attempt to do something that could be implemented in months and not decades that would address the reality of living in Navan and working in Dublin.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Yes these are the same “experts” who told us for decades that the Phoenix Park Tunnel couldn’t be used!

    Yet people on a forum like boards kept questioning it, until eventually it was found that it could be used and now has been happily carrying passengers for more then a decade!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    When Irish Rail started claiming it couldn't be used, there was either still one scheduled weekend evening service using it, or it had just stopped. Was a particularly pathetic lie.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,299 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    To be clear, Irish Rail didn’t say the PPT couldn’t be used at all; they said it couldn’t be used as a substitute for the DART Underground “interconnector” route. And that is still true.

    I remember the arguments for using the PPT, and they were almost all focused on it as a way of connecting Heuston and Connolly, or (from people who didn’t know just how congested Connolly is) of terminating SW intercity trains at Connolly. I don’t remember any loud voices proposing a brand-new DART line using this tunnel as a way to connect Co. Kildare with the Docklands, via a new large-scale DART-Metro interchange station, which is what is being done.

    They weren’t lying, they were rebutting what was, at the time, a stupid idea that was floated only to in an attempt to scupper the more ambitious DART Underground project. The statements were trying to protect DART Underground from the same backward penny-pinchers in politics and the media who are still saying that a Luas extension beyond Finglas, or a DART spur, to Dublin Airport would be better than building MetroLink.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There were plenty of Irish Rail statements saying the tunnel was not up to passenger standards etc.

    Before becoming anti everything, Frank McDonald was pushing a sort of circle line arrangement using a DART U equivalent and the PPT.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,299 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    It wasn’t up to standard. It still isn’t. DART+ SW has a ton of money being spent to bring it up to standard. Any meaningful passenger use would have required electrification (as it does now): you cannot run regular diesel trains through a small tunnel without endangering the health of passengers, but I don’t remember this being costed into the “just run through the tunnel we have” arguments. So, until the other lines were electrified too, you couldn’t have run any useful service under Phoenix Park: the “simple” fix turns out cost nearly a billion euro, back when the DU option was estimated at 2.5 billion: if it’s an either/or, I know which one I’d have pushed for. And back then, CIE really only got one shot at a big project; thanks to the influence of the PDs, the governments of those days were extremely hostile toward CIE in particular, and rail in general.

    Personally, I don’t think the current DART+ SW plan to run through the PPT would have made sense if Glasnevin wasn’t the interchange point with Metro.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    The claim wasn't "it isn't up to modern passenger standards", it was an outright lie claiming they couldn't run passenger services at all. Even though there had been scheduled services, albeit once a week, for ages.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    This however is a major problem with Irish Rails approach over the last 30 years. They seem to over focus on the big glitzy very expensive tunnel project over the low hanging fruit that was sitting there, ready to go.

    The PPT is an obvious example of this, but so is the rest of DART+

    We should have been building out the electrified network over the last 30 years, doing the pretty basic work of extending the electrification to Drogheda and Wicklow and out on the western lines, non of which required the tunnel.

    To be clear I’m not saying we shouldn’t build the DART Tunnel, quiet the opposite, I’m saying we should never have stopped building out the DART network and had we done that we would now likely seen the big success of the extended DART network and we would instead now be moving onto the next step of the tunnel.

    The Navan to Drogheda line, feels the same, a great piece of infrastructure, left unused for decades, because it isn’t the “perfect” (but expensive) solution.

    I feel like Irish Rail has gotten it all wrong with this approach, instead they should have been building out rail services wherever possible, even if not the perfect solution, showing the demand and then easier to justify improved routes or services.

    Look at Copenhagen, they took 1800’s steam operated lines and electrified them in the early 1900’s and then over the decades gradually improved the service, turning them into S-Togs and increasing frequency and train length and now looking to fully operate these lines and run them at 90 second frequencies! They implemented what service they could, which were very popular, when then lead to making it easier to invest in the next evolution.

    They certainly didn’t sit around for decades ignoring perfectly good city center tunnels!

    In fairness to Irish Rail, it feels like they have realised this mistake and are now taking a more gradual approach, we see this with DART+, CACR, Intercity Rail electrification, etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,633 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    I think you might need to revise that comment.

    They did have to carry out remedial works on the tunnel route of approximately €10m before the passenger service was launched - there were clearance issues with trains passing one another which didn't arise when there were so few trains using the route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,299 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Copenhagen is very different, because Copenhagen is the capital of Denmark, not Ireland. I don’t think DSB, the Danish rail operator, was treated with the same kind of distrust and outright hostility that successive Irish governments reserved for CIÉ. (The S-Tog electric rail service was begun in the 1920s - a level of ambition that even the new Free State, with oodles of cheap electricity from Ardnacrusha didn’t show). Yes, we should have been doing all of these things you mention, and DART should have been built on continuously, but for most in Government for most of the 1980s and 1990s, DART was “too expensive”, despite it being a phenomenal success - that in itself was a further complaint: DART was so successful that it required more trains to be brought into service, at even more cost. Our crippling public debt in the 1980s is only part of the reason - there was also no political will to invest in more rail.

    Things could have improved when we got money, but in the first boom years of the 1990s, the government was heavily influenced by the individualistic ideology of the PDs which basically said that everyone should just buy a car if they needed to get around Dublin. (There was a brief window of about 3-4 years where road improvements outpaced car ownership, but after that, motoring turned into the ball-ache it is in every other car-dependent culture - yaay neo-conservatism!).

    On favouring big-ticket projects, this is because, historically, only big high-profile projects ever got approval from Ministers. If it wasn’t big and shiny, it didn’t get a look in; in fairness, this isn’t only a rail issue: the same affected roads as well - you could get money for a motorway, but not to improve junctions, surfacing and signage on R-roads. Rail, however, has the disadvantage from a PR point of view that a lot of the work that’s needed is invisible to users: new track, points and signalling, or depot capacity: nobody sees that, but without them you can’t expand the network.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3 daveandersonie


    There was another call to review the Navan Drogheda link recently


    https://www.meathchronicle.ie/2026/03/27/renewed-call-for-navan-drogheda-rail-line-reinstatement/


    I’ve read before that there are various constraints that make this unviable. Then I found this EU funded project, where they are solving for these constraints


    https://monocab-system.com/en/


    Also - look how cool the pods are!


    d.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Gadgetbahn, absolutely useless for effectively everything; and completely and utterly unsuitable for this.

    The limitation for Drogheda-Navan is capacity on Drogheda-Dublin, which can only be solved by extra tracks, not exceptionally low capacity gadgetbahns.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Capacity issues on Drogheda-Dublin portion of the route wouldn't exist if you just extend Drogheda-bound trains to Navan, instead of trying to fit extra paths in for Navan-Dublin.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That would mean trains arriving heavily loaded at Drogheda and hence reduce passenger capacity at Drogheda and southwards, even if it doesn't change track capacity.

    Also, trains arriving at Drogheda will be BEMU sooner rather than later and not have the range to get to Navan.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Does the business case for Navan-Dublin direct say that trains will be "heavily loaded"?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    They aren't building a railway line and expecting light loads.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Once Drogheda is upgraded to OHLE that is easily resolved. You take one DART per hour that starts at Clongriffin and have it start at Navan instead. Then have it operate Navan → Drogheda → Non Stop too → Clongriffin.

    That wouldn't use anymore paths on the Northern line then are currently planned as part of DART+ and it would have no impact on Drogheda services or capacity as you aren't using a Drogheda train and by operating non stop you limit it's impact on the capacity from Clongiffin south.

    Also you can then operate it as a BEMU between Navan and Drogheda. Basically a version of extending Greystones to Wicklow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Navan via Clonsilla should be well under construction by the time Drogheda gets OHLE. I dont see that line ever reopening to passengers.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73 ✭✭spark23


    It could be open to passengers now, be a useful addition to the network in a time of fuel crisis



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,633 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No it couldn’t. There is no platform at Drogheda on that line for a start, and secondly there is no spare rolling stock available.

    And at the risk of repeating the same point again, northern line trains are beyond full as it is with people being left behind at times.

    Adding even more people to that is not going to work until a significant increase in capacity is possible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    They're building a platform at Drogheda as part of Dart+. These are similar arguments that were made against Phoenix Park tunnel but, as is proven there, the best investment in infrastructure is sweating the assets we have.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    There was rolling stock available for Park Tunnel services. There is no rolling stock available for any expansion at all currently; and pretty much everything replaced by DART+ that isn't going to Hammond Lane is spoken for already.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,907 ✭✭✭AngryLips


    Even if it was a Navan-Drogheda shuttle service, it is hard to see how such a connection would overload northern line services when the whole purpose of Dart+ is to deliver a massive capacity upgrade for that line. Further to that, it is very likely that actual service patterns on Dart+ will not max out the maximum potential capacity of the upgraded line from day one. There's no consistency to this argument, what's the point of a capacity upgrade if we're unwilling to take steps to deliver more capacity?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Developments along the line will take up all available capacity.

    Navan is to be served via the Western line.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    No it wouldn’t! Not if you start the Clongriffin service from Navan instead. It would work perfectly fine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    That is robbing capacity from South of Clongriffin. Capacity that there isn't any to rob, and all to provide a crap service. Also increases the number of units required.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Ah now, Clongriffin will have 9 DARTs per hour, plus 2 commuters. It would still have plenty of capacity if you started one from Navan instead. Specially if you had it skip the stops between Drogheda and Clongriffin.

    9 DARTs an hour at Clongriffin is a DART every 6.6 minutes. Massive capacity.

    I know you prefer the M3 route, I want to see that built too, but there is no need to make up silly illogical excuses why this couldn’t work!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 75,483 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Pointing out that one slow train an hour, taking capacity from elsewhere and needing more rolling stock to do so, is a bad idea is neither silly nor illogical. The reverse is, though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,528 ✭✭✭Glaceon


    I can't see the Tara Mines trains coming back so I don't think it has much of a future if it isn't used for some sort of Navan-Drogheda shuttle or Dublin service. I'd like to see it offered to one of the heritage groups because it'll probably end up as a greenway otherwise.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,299 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    There’s two scenarios, and neither of them are good for Drogheda-Navan. Either it generates significantly more passengers, in which case it exacerbates passenger crush-loading closer to Dublin (with impacts on punctuality and reliability), or it has no real effect on passenger numbers, in which case it’s not worth doing in the first place.

    The root problem is that there isn’t any more peak-time capacity available into Dublin from the north.



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