Women's rights under attack

I've stayed quiet on this so far because I don't really enjoy heated discussions, although I have been reading all of it. I can see valid points on both "sides", not that there should be sides.

If everyone really listens to what each other is saying instead of being defensive, I think there is a lot of common ground there. A lot of what people are arguing about is just language and technicalities. If you look at the fundamentals, everyone here just wants everyone to be allowed to be who they are and to be safe and happy. Empathy and listening openly would go a long way.

If we could start with the common ground and then co-create a society where everyone has the autonomy to be who they are and everyone has their rights and needs met, or at the very least listened to without being shouted down, it would be a huge step forward.

I know the perception is that trans people are the minority and need to be protected, which I believe is true, but it's quite apparent that the main "side" being shouted down here and in the wider world is the women who are making very strong valid points that are in no way hateful or against trans people in general and then being accused of being bigots and in some cases, even having their own human rights violated.

It is actually possible to simulatneously have respect and compassion for trans people, to accept them and allow them their right to live their own lives as they see fit, and to also be able to state that the true fact that trans women are not the same as biological women and that there are certain circumstances where it's important to separate the sexes by biological sex and not gender identity. I think it's horrific that in most situations it's not even safe for women to voice that and that's absolutely the biggest problem with the trans issue. We all need to be able to be safely heard.

It's very unusual for me to find myself disagreeing with some opinions labelled as being the "left" (I hate the whole left right terminology!) because I would have always considered myself to be extremely progressive and very much the opposite of what anyone would call the "right". I oppose all things that remove individual people's autonomy. I am autistic and part of the LGBTQ+ community. I have trans friends and have met other trans people. I strongly believe they have every right to live their lives in whatever way they like and to be treated as the gender they present themselves as to the world in the vast majority of situations. I have enormous compassion from them, as I do for all people and all living things. (After all, my spiritual belief is that we are all part of the one living thing which is nature / mother Earth.)

The reality is that the situation is complex and that biological women have rights too - rights that have taken centuries to acquire and are still not fully realised. As many have rightly pointed out, there are indeed much bigger threats to women's rights and safety in the world. I do think there is a divide and conquer situation at play and the fact is that women's rights are under attack from many different directions. But just because one threat is bigger, doesn't mean the smaller threats don't matter. And just because they appear small or don't affect that many Irish women, doesn't mean they don't matter. One doesn't negate the other and when threats are coming from all directions it's even more important to be aware of them, including how they are making people divide. Again, if we truly hear each other we can choose to not let it divide us.

To clarify, I don't think in any way that trans women are a threat to women. I happily accept them as they are. I believe they should be immensely proud of who they are - trans women. I just wish that instead of undermining the experience of biological women by saying they are exactly the same as us, they could acknowledge that that is simply not true.

Instead of the term "women" being applied to everyone who identifies as female and forcing biological women to use terms like "cis" women, or worse, "people who menstruate" or "people with uteruses", why can't biological women just be women and trans women be trans women (when the distinction needs to be made, which it doesn't need to in most cases)? After all, there is nothing wrong with being a trans woman and, as I mentioned, if that's what someone is they should be proud of that identity. Considering the enormous rage that is displayed when trans people are "misgendered" and how much they have fought for their rights to decide the language that's used for them (which I don't disagree with - that is their right), I find it hugely offensive to be told I have to describe myself differently. I am a woman and I shouldn't have to add "cis" to that or anything else - that is my right.

As someone who believes strongly in nature, I don't believe humans can control it as much as they think and my feeling on this applies to all other areas as well. Humans can do amazing things but we can't control nature. We overmedicalise and try to control far too much in life. It's amazing that trans people have access to medical facilities that can make them physically look like how they feel inside so that they can live their lives following their gender identity. I accept trans women as women socially and treat them as they wish to be treated as females, but to say that they are actually women just is not correct and actually undermines what it is to be a biological woman. I think these definitions need to be clarified because this is an example of where people can get caught up arguing about the fine points of language and terminology and therefore not manage to find common ground. If we can all be women and be treated like women in the vast majority of cases, and in the minority of situations when the distinction actually needs to be made, if women can be women and trans women can be trans women, I don't think that should be offensive to anyone.

As to the situations where I think sex does matter more than gender identity, I believe it is limited to a small number of situations but in these small number of situations it really does matter. In my opinion, that would be situations where women are confined, such as prison, situations where vulnerable women need services such as rape crisis centres or women's shelters and possibly some other specific situations where women must comply to things beyond their control, such as workplace changing facilties. And of course in the case of rape crisis centres, women's shelters and changing rooms, there should be facilities available to trans women as well.

I'm not talking about public toilets and the like because when we choose to use public spaces we share them with other members of the public and there is always going to be a risk with that, even if tiny. Apart from being impractical, forcing trans people to use public spaces like toilets that are opposite to their gender identity is unfair to them and I don't think it's necessary. Personally, I have no problem sharing a public toilet with trans women but I can see how someone who is a rape victim might and I would absolutely empathise with that. However, using a public toilet is a choice and not enforced, which is why I think it's very different to the prison situation, for example. It also doesn't leave any space for gender fluid or non binary people. Where are they supposed to go and who is to check? Really we need to all live and let live and stop pushing for even more bureaucracy and invasion of privacy in people's lives.

I also believe that even in the situations I've listed, there's no threat to women from genuine trans women but there is a very real threat from men pretending to be trans women. As ridiculous as it would be to police public spaces like toilets, it would be simple, fair to everyone and basic common sense to actually check someone's biological sex when it comes to the limited situations I've mentioned above. And in many of those, exceptions could be made when the trans woman has actually undergone surgery. But there is no way in the world anyone who has a penis should be allowed in women's prisons or working in female only rape crisis centres, for example. And for people who point that out to be called bigots is quite disturbing to me.

Another area where sex matters is services and groups for people seeking sexual or romantic partners. If someone wants to only date biological women, that should be their right. If someone is happy to date either, that's their choice and there's no reason both types of groups can't exist for both cases. I mean, there are dating groups for people with other specific things in common that exclude members who don't share those features, such as religion or even race, so why is it so horrendous for biological sex to be used, especially considering that's a fundamental feature of what people are looking for? To exclude trans women from social groups, for example a book club or even something like a women's gym is wrong. But to not be able to exclude them from things like dating apps (for straight men or lesbians looking for women) is bizarre. If all dating groups excluded them, that would be a problem, but some are calling for an outright ban on anything that exludes them. I mean, I wouldn't be offended by being exluded from a group for black people seeking partners, for example.

I dislike competitive sports anyway and I have no interest in the area but I do believe things need to be fair for everyone. It especially matters in contact sports I think, when women may get hurt. But again, participating in sports is a choice. I don't have a strong opinion on this one but I do feel like the discussion of sports people with development differences is a complex and completely separate thing. I would prefer to live in a fully non competitive world where all sports were about participation and not winning medals but that's a different conversation.

The final area that I have concern with is when it comes to children. I believe everyone's rights are equal but children's rights trump everything. What child knows themselves well enough to make such life altering decisions? I'm still discovering who I am now at 45 and I don't think I was capable of making any kind of important decision at all l until I was at least mid 20s. I know everyone is different but I can confidently say that no child is actually in a position to know for certain that such an extreme decision is the right path for them and I don't believe parents should be allowed make that decision for them either.

Having said all of that I'm sure it will come across to many people as "anti-trans" but I can assure you I absolutely don't feel any fear or dislike of trans people. If you can read what I've written with an open heart, you will know that. I really believe the more diversity in the world, the better and I passionately believe in every individual's right to autonomy in choosing how they live their lives, including their gender identity.

The final point I want to make is that I've observed people being labelled and pushed into stereotyped boxes, grouping them with radical extremists and calling them nazis etc. I find it so saddening that the world has descended into this insanity where everything is so polarised. I also find it baffling that people accuse each other of being influenced by what they read on social media etc. when they are exemplifying that themselves. It's like the pot and the kettle.

People are complex and can have complex and nuanced opinions on different topics. If we want to come to a solution that will work for everyone it will involve compromise. I would encourage everyone on either side of any debate to try a bit harder to truly listen to what each other is actually saying instead of jumping to conclusions and defensively pushing them into this box or that box. Just because someone says a trans woman is not the same as a biological woman doesn't mean they don't want trans people to exist. And to the trans people calling for allies, you should not need allies because there should be no enemy. Yes there are some truly transphobic people out there but they are an extremist minority and I haven't seen anything like that from anyone posting here.

If we really want to create a better world, we all need to tap into our female side. That includes all women and men. We need to start resolving conflicts and differences of opinion with compassion and open listening or there will be no world for any of us.

I agree with what you're saying but if you read through the thread carefully, I don't think anyone here is saying that trans women are deviants or perverts. Just that they're not actually women.

Ah so you weren't here during the 70s and 80s . A lot of work was done towards equality by the time you arrived .

This comment in your previous post is ridiculous (maybe you are trying to annoy?)

"…people had more respect for each other, whether that's towards women or towards older employees, doesn't matter. Maybe the odd joke about gays and lesbians and whispers behind their backs, but that's about it."

You have lived in a rarified little bubble if you seriously believe that to be true , even in the 90s .

You could add in women going into the bank looking for mortgages and being told to come back with their husbands.

Not to mention Golda Meir.

Who are the stridently anti-trans people in the thread, and how do you know what they were thinking in the 80's?

And yet emphasising that such men are not trans. The wilful misinterpretations...

It's not uncommon that a 'legacy' employee got T&Cs not available to later hires.

Or the gap due to personal choices, some of which may be due to sex.