Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

For Petes Sake · 25-03-2026 01:05PM

Based on achievements, performance and longevity yet you pick Wallace and SOB over VDF.

TRC10 · 25-03-2026 01:08PM

1-Healy 2-Wood 3-Furlong

4-Beirne 5-POC

6-O'Brien 8-Conan 7-VDF

9-Murray 10-Sexton

12-Aki 13-BOD

11-Earls 15-Keenan 14-Bowe

16-Sheehan 17-Porter 18-Hayes 19-D.Ryan 20-Ferris 21-JGP 22-Humphreys 23-D'Arcy

almostover · 25-03-2026 01:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339470#Comment_124339470

Wallace was an integral part of the first grand slam winning team of the pro era, Lions test starter and replacement in 2009, test replacement in 2001 and an integral part of the Munster Heineken cup winning teams of 2006 and 2008 and finalists in 2000 and 2002.

SOB was a replacement for Leinster's 1st Heineken cup win, starter in 2011 and 2012 Heineken cup wins but missed the win in 2018 due to injury. Won a 6N with Ireland in 2015 but missed the 2014 due to injury. And was both a test Lion replacement and starter in 2013 and started all 3 tests in 2017.

VdF has won 1 champions cup with Leinster, played 1 game of the 2018 grand slam because he got injured in the 1st game and was a starter in the 2023 and the 2024 6 nations wins. He has never made a Lions test appearance.

His world player of the year accolade clouds the argument but I don't give that much weight. Josh is a fantastic player but the other 2 guys were better than most of their peers for a sustained period.

For Petes Sake · 25-03-2026 01:58PM

He has more appearances and more tries for Ireland than both of them.

You think Wallace’s 3 Lions test cap is worth more than being voted as the best rugby player in the world? The Lions is a relic of a bygone era that is only designed to make money for the home nations. Winning World Player of the Year represents some of the greatest players to have ever played the game recognising a player as the best.

Come off it. SOB didn’t have the longevity that VDF has, and Wallace hadn’t the individual accolades.

It’s a no brainer that VDF is Ireland’s greatest ever 7, for the simple fact that he was recognised as the greatest player in the world.

I’ve said multiple times here that he’s the most under appreciated and underrated player to play for Ireland, because we have nonsense like putting weight into a glorified exhibition rather than actually being the best as a means to undermine him.

Genuinely baffling mental gymnastics on display again.

vetinari · 25-03-2026 02:05PM

Calling the Lions a glorified exhibition because it doesn't suit your argument is a bit daft.
It matters a LOT to the players to get picked for the squad and to play in the tests.

A world player of the year award is obviously phenomenal but it isn't the slam dunk that you think it is.
There's more to a career than that.

Tommybojangles · 25-03-2026 02:09PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339653#Comment_124339653

Agree that the Lions should hold massive weight, but a world player of the year award is as close to a slam dunk as you can get

For Petes Sake · 25-03-2026 02:20PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339653#Comment_124339653

Lions is a slam dunk but being voted by a list of the greatest in the game as the best player in the world isn’t?

Insane.

TRC10 · 25-03-2026 02:35PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339669#Comment_124339669

I could give two sh*ts about Lions selection. A lot of it is about being in form and injury free at the right time once every 4 years, and the coach always has a bias towards players from the country he coaches.

Fitzgerald played in Lions tests. But he managed 4 tries in 34 caps for Ireland and should be nowhere near this team. Earls never played a test but was a far more prolific winger for Ireland. I’d have Stockdale ahead of Fitzgerald. Likewise, VDF never played a Lions test. Does that mean Tom Croft or Sam Simmonds were better players? Obviously not.

AbusesToilets · 25-03-2026 02:48PM

I'm surprised at how underrated Henshaw is in these teams. I think he's the best centre we've produced not named BOD. Elite at playing at 12 and 13, more complete player than his competition at 12. I've been very critical of his selection this season for Leinster and Ireland, but he is one of Ireland's best ever players.

TRC10 · 25-03-2026 02:51PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339773#Comment_124339773

Consistent player but never got to the level Aki was playing at in 2023. He put on a load of size when he was young in order to play 12, but I always felt he was carrying to much bulk for most of his career. His best form was around 2020/21 when he looked noticeably lighter. I’d argue he was never as dominant as even McCloskey is currently.

ionadnapóca · 25-03-2026 03:01PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124338310#Comment_124338310

I'm not saying Keith Wood wasn't an incredible, world class player, who would have thrived also in the modern game, I'm just saying Dan Sheehan is better.

We'll have to agree to disagree! Again! Nice Questions to debate though. Cheers

I think that 2011 was a great collection of freakish individual power athletes in the back row, but it's hard to argue they had the right balance.

When it comes to power athletes - SEdogbo and BWard look the most likely to me to come close to Ferris and SOB.

Hopefully we will be discussing the merits of playing Edogbo & Ward v Baird & vdF!

Tommybojangles · 25-03-2026 03:04PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339736#Comment_124339736

Eh? I was arguing in favour of VDF. "Not giving 2 sh*ts" about Lions selection is very much your perogative but I think its silly to dismiss it.

On the other hand it is massively outweighed by a world player of the yeat award imo. Id also have stockdale ahead of Fitzgerald. Earls too

almostover · 25-03-2026 03:32PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339639#Comment_124339639

I also listed each player's win records with province and country. There's nothing between the 3 of them. But for me both Wallace and SOB had athleticism and power that VdF just doesn't have. That's why Wallace and SOB were picked above their peers from 3 other countries for the Lions.

And I agree that the Lions is an anachronism. I also think the WPTY is another relatively meaningless accolade.

What matters is trophies with province and country. And performance with both of those teams. Wallace and SOB could do things that very few in the game could when it came to ball carrying. Both were utter wrecking balls. VdF is a different type of player, he is the quintessential workhorse. POM was one of the best defensive lineout jumpers, jackal threat and leaders in rugby for a number of years. If I could pick them all I would. Wallace and SOB could both play at 6 too, and POM could play 7. VdF in fairness threw to the lineout in one 6N game.

Best 4 flankers of the pro era for me in no particular order are VdF, Wallace, POM & SOB. Have to pick 3 of those 4. Who would you choose as your best 3 flankers of the pro era?

I'm willing to revise my selection in the future, VdF has 3-4 more years left in his career most likely.

eagle eye · 25-03-2026 03:57PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339938#Comment_124339938

JVDF is far and away the best 7 to ever play for Ireland, it's not even close.

You can spout any stats you want and it doesn't change that.

And I'm a Connacht fan so I'm not part of this Leinster v Munster thing.

And the World rugby player of the year award doesn't cloud things , it just emphasises how good JVDF has been.

shinana abu · 25-03-2026 03:59PM

Cannot help wondering what heights Leavy would have reached

almostover · 25-03-2026 04:10PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340030#Comment_124340030

Given our previous interactions on Harry Byrne it seems that you're not a fan of statistics. How do you think the world player of the year is selected? I've added an attachment to help you.

Note that voting from fans also plays a part in the selection. I don't think it's the accolade many make it out to be.

Screenshot 2026-03-25 151015.png

OldRio · 25-03-2026 04:25PM

Very interesting discussion. As for the Lions? Just have a look at some of the players that lined out for them during the Gatland years?

For Petes Sake · 25-03-2026 04:36PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340109#Comment_124340109

Exactly. The idea that the Lions is worth a sh*te in the professional era but being one of 18 players in the entire game to be named as the world player of the year is 'not a slam dunk' is utter mental behaviour.

More caps, more tries, was at one stage the best player in the entire sport - but never better than David Wallace. How anyone reads that sentence with a straight face is beyond me.

eagle eye · 25-03-2026 05:46PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340080#Comment_124340080

The Harry Byrne things bears no resemblance to this.

I didn't make the world player of the year the be all and end all, I just said it emphasises how great he's been.

He got an Autumn internationals player of the season award as well, that was in '24 I believe?

SOB and Wallace were great players but JVDF was the best forward for Ireland in many games for a long time. I believe he's fifth in player of the match awards after BOD, O'Connell, Sexton and O'Gara. I was told that by a man who knows his stuff, I don't have proof of it.

ersatz · 25-03-2026 08:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339653#Comment_124339653

Yeah, BOD never got one though you could argue strongly that there were a couple of years where he was incredibly influential and deserved one. That Woods got one doesn't necessarily mean he's Ireland's best ever hooker. The lions is irrelevant though.

50HX · 25-03-2026 09:10PM

Tis only a bit of fun lads picking these teams

It's not insane or mental gymnastics etc if someone picks Wallace ahead of VDF...we all don't have to agree.

P.S I would pick Wallace in my team as well 😁

For Petes Sake · 25-03-2026 10:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340716#Comment_124340716

Sorry but it is insane picking Wallace over Van Der Flier.

It's not even close between them.

Yeah_Right · 25-03-2026 10:31PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340133#Comment_124340133

Going by that logic, Wood is clearly better than Sheehan.

eagle eye · 25-03-2026 10:56PM

It's far too early for Sheehan to be even considered for an all time team. You'd expect he will be the best ever hooker but he needs another four years before being in the conversation.

50HX · 25-03-2026 11:05PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340838#Comment_124340838

Its subjective

Hard to beat the raw power of Wally but if you want work rate & tackle all day then VDF

Podge_irl · 25-03-2026 11:05PM

I enjoy these arguments and don't take them too seriously but they are inherently subjective and even across 1 decade making comparisons is difficult, never mind 30 years. Sheehan is a better rugby player than Wood was - it is not particularly close. He is simply better at most of the facets of the game - he is stronger, quicker, a better thrower, a better scrummager, a better rucker. So then we are having to extrapolate how much better Wood would be under today's S&C, training environment etc and we are largely doing it by comparing him to his own cohort. But it is all supposition (maybe his own cohort was unusually bad, maybe better S&C doesn't help him cause he was already taking it super seriously when others weren't, etc).

For what it is worth, this would be mine but I am only locked in on about half of them.

15. Keenan 14. Bowe 13. O'Driscoll 12. D'Arcy 11. Hickie

10. Sexton 9. Murray

1. Healy 2. Sheehan 3. Furlong

4. Beirne 5. O'Connell

6. O'Mahoney 7. O'Brien 8. Heaslip

16. Wood 17. Porter 18. Ross 19. Ryan 20. Doris 21. Gibson-Park 22. O'Gara 23. Earls

For Petes Sake · 25-03-2026 11:06PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340854#Comment_124340854

Wood has more caps over a longer period than Sheehan, as well as winning world player of the year. So yes there is absolutely an argument to be made for Wood being 2. I think when all is said and done, Sheehan will surpass him.

Van Der Flier has more Ireland caps and more tries than Wallace and O'Brien. Wallace had a longer career, but never reached the heights Van Der Flier reached as a rugby player, as good as he was.

This isn't just about him winning world player of the year, but it absolutely holds more weight then being picked for a few games where the only thing gained from it is money for the unions.

Yeah_Right · 25-03-2026 11:33PM

One thing I was thinking about when comparing Wallace or SOB with VDF is the quality of their international rivals in the same position. The former two had careers that overlapped with the likes of McCaw,, Pocock, Back, Hill, Britz, Smith, Kaino, TDT, Faletau, Warburton. The opponents of that calibre that VDF has had to contend with are Savea and PSdT. Maybe Matera. It's harder to be best in the world when your direct rivals are the quality of the first group.

I admit I've had a couple of beers so I've probably missed some great players in both groups.

TRC10 · 25-03-2026 11:42PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124340909#Comment_124340909

It depends how much weight you put on longevity, as opposed to how good a player was at their absolute peak. For example, Stockdale at his very best in 2018 is the best we’ve seen from and Irish winger in the pro era. But he’s done very little outside that year, so it’s hard to justify selecting him, even though at his absolute peak he’s the best we’ve had. Bowe for example, never scored 7 tries in one 6N, but was consistently excellent for an extended period.

I personally don’t think it’s too early for Sheehan to be considered. He’s got 39 caps, he’s our 8th highest try scorer of all time, the best try scoring forward in 6N history, and has won a grand slam.

fitz · 26-03-2026 12:19AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124339159#Comment_124339159

I was at that game, and the group I was with (all Munster folk, I married into it), all reckoned we'd do a number on them, but I remember saying before the team was announced that if we started ROG it was a sign we'd do nothing but have one out runners and the Welsh would be well able for it. It was gut wrenching in the stadium watching us blow it, especially after having been at the Australia game and experiencing the incredible celebrations after it. Yeah, still a deep wound, that one.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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