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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭Felexicon




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Thats fair enough. He's so unwilling to give a pass/make a break and also the constant diving back in-field - It must also be following some sort of instructions to do this?

    Plan A - Gary gets the ball. Get on his inside shoulder. He's going to set-up another ruck.

    Plan B - See above but just be aware if he makes the break and be ready for a pop pass.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Ringrose was outperforming Huw Jones on the Lions tour last summer, and was actually featuring well as a strike runner etc. He scored 3 tries in 4 appearances, and was going to start the second test but for withdrawing himself from selection.

    His form since then has been mixed at best and often poor enough IMO. I don't think it's Nienaber who deserves the criticism here, I just think he's not playing particularly well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Just to add - if you were to give me the option of a SMcC-GR or ST-HJones centre partnership; I'd take Ireland's everyday of the week.

    The selflessness is one of the reasons why I think Ireland will win the Triple Crown.

    Sorry, but I beg to differ on Nienaber!



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Don't get me wrong, I'm no fan of Nienaber at all, and would be glad to see him gone. Leinster's defence, something that was actually never really an issue at all, has actively gotten materially worse by almost any conceivable metric since we imposed his strategy.

    I don't think it does Ringrose any favours - he was previously someone who IMO was good at picking his moments to shoot etc, and I don't think pure missed tackle stats in a blitz defence tell the full story, but his actual tackling quality is worse of late. Maybe it's a confidence thing after a few head knocks or maybe it's something different, but I wouldn't necessarily place it on Nienaber.

    In attack - we collectively as a side have looked more stilted of late, and we're consistently attacking quite narrowly. I dunno if this is by design or we just lose our shape too quickly (sometimes this is definitely what happens), but Ringrose is just lacking sharpness here too IMO and picking bad options.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Yep, couldnt agree more: Confidence, type (defensive) of rugby at Leinster etc

    I agree; it does Ringrose no favours at all. It has, in part, also blunted his attacking skills to me though. He's feckin exhausted by the time he actually gets the ball. Basically he's out of practice in attack.

    Post edited by ionadnapóca on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I would've agreed with you last season, but tbh the Scottish combo is playing much better in aggregate, as Jones has maintained and improved on his Lions performance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    We'll both know more after Saturday!

    Cant wait.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    AA1WYhkZ.gif

    More of this on Saturday!

    Untitled Image


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,837 ✭✭✭sprucemoose


    its a bit unfair to say Alred was riding the coattails of anyone though, wilkinson started on a very solid base but he credits him with bringing him to another level again. o gara has said working with both of them on the 2001 lions made him improve massively too. even recently someone like james o connor has improved after working with him



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 934 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    Given where we are at coming into the final weekend, Andy Farrell and coaching staff are the biggest winners with many here writing them off as history 4 short weeks ago post 5th Feb beating in Paris. Maybe we should trust they know what they’re doing and let them at it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 306 ✭✭noc1980


    We've had 1 good performance this campaign against an England side in turmoil. We've been annihilated by France 2 years running, struggled against a woeful Wales team 2 years running, embarrassed by the Springboks and dealt with comfortably 2 years running by a very ordinary NZ team that sacked its coach. If this form makes Farrell and his staff "the biggest winners" then I dread to imagine how bad we'll be if they start getting things wrong.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,427 ✭✭✭OldRio




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    I think it's a fair comment to say we're well off the pace still. One swallow does not a summer make. The new emphasis on offloading is a positive sign, maybe the first evidence of an evolved tactic approach starting to bear fruit.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,588 ✭✭✭ersatz


    For me squeeking through on 4 wins out of 5, hopefully second place at least and a new crop of players into the squad/team is a good place to be 18 months out from the WC. 6N pays the bills and we have done fine in this tournament, even if there are reasons to be disappointed with many of the performances. Winning while not playing great is a good habit to have, and still having lots of headroom and stuff to work out puts us into a much stronger place than the run in to previous world cups. Yes, 9 and 13 still have big backup questions marks, FR and 12 have some new options but still issues, while BR and wings have come a long way from a year ago. And the little we've seen of a more expansive, unstructured and offloading style are very promising. If it all comes together we could be a formidable team. Lots of reasons to be optimistic, nd also a lot of reasons to think Farrell has a very strong vision of where he is going.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,394 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Monkey's paw : Toulouse announce the signing of Stuart McCloskey



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 334 ✭✭Billy_the_Kid
    Master


    Is there anyway to read Ronan O'Garas article in the Examiner about the outhalf situation? It is behind a paywall



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    Interesting analysis by TRK on the last day on our attacking setup.

    Essentially says that everything is setup to usually play through #9. Whoever is at #10 is playing more like an auxiliary centre a lot of the time. He points out that we form this type of flat shape (below) a lot off ruck ball (as opposed to a deeper one where 10 is calling the play) in various parts of the pitch. We then go multi-phase before hopefully/eventually finding holes.

    image.png

    JGP decides the receiving options and #10 is expected to be a either a running option á la 12/13 or be an extension of JGP in terms of passing, organising those around him.

    It got me wondering the following about our 9s/10s:

    The upside of playing this way is when JGP is on song, he's almost unplayable. He snipes the edges, keeps the defence honest, we function really well as a team as a result. When he's not functioning well and keeping the tempo up/has poor passing/decisions, those outside of him suffer as they're playing so flat as compared to if it was the more traditional shape with #10 calling the shots.

    I think it begs the question can Casey/Doak play that way if JGP is injured/subbed?

    Is Sam P is struggling in attack because while he can absolutely be an extension of JGP's passing (he has better passing range that Crowley) he isn't much of a running threat. Teams know they can fan out that bit more. Another consequence of this shape is #10 will be in rucks more (see Crowley the last day securing ball repeatedly in that first half especially) or keep play moving when JGP is snagged (as Crowley did, SP has done also, you see Ringrose stepping in also at 9 at times, ). If a 10 is involved in the ruck he loops back around quickly to be part of the next play. SP is an abysmal rucker and I'd query his athleticism to get back around the corner. This isn't meant to be a criticism of SP btw, it's more that I'm wondering if he fits the system when it's setup like that. He'd look far better in a more traditional shape I'd wager where he is calling the shots more.

    I do wonder is it why Frawley is getting a look-in now as backup 10 all of a sudden - he has the physical/athletic attributes to play the 10 role the way it's meant to be in the above system.

    It'll be interesting to see if a) SP is brought back into the fold again the next day b) we continue to hold that sort of attacking shape, I hadn't picked up on it myself.

    Back to TRK - he points out that going multi-phase over and back like we do, more rucks, more collisions etc saps energy and is wondering is it why we're getting sucker-punched on the counter. I'd be worried about Scotland in that regard, they're more likely to punish us than Wales



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,924 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    im not convinced that the example above is what our shape actually is.

    Murray Kinsella does a much better explanation here about what our shape looks like when it is working, and what it look slike when its not.

    https://www.the42.ie/ireland-scotland-update-2-6979403-Mar2026/

    youll see that when it works Crowley (our 10) is in a much more traditional boot location behind the pods then in the flat screengrab example above. If Crowley is hitting rucks its a sign that out shape and organisation has broken down, not that its a prescribed or premeditated pattern.

    Yes, we play a lot through 9, simply because we have a very good 9 and we have two young and pretty green 10's. I would argue that the times that our attack falls down is when JGP is on a different wavelength to the other playmakers.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Thanks for posting. Interesting reading.

    The upside of playing this way is when JGP is on song, he's almost unplayable. He snipes the edges, keeps the defence honest, we function really well as a team as a result. When he's not functioning well and keeping the tempo up/has poor passing/decisions, those outside of him suffer as they're playing so flat as compared to if it was the more traditional shape with #10 calling the shots.

    To me that is what Ireland (JGP) always does and the outhalf sweeping in behind the pods.

    But obviously it all depends on gainline & quick ball.

    As MurrayK article: https://www.the42.ie/ireland-scotland-update-2-6979403-Mar2026/

    To put this in simple terms, they tried to move the ball wide after losing the gainline in their carries or off slow rucks. Neither of those things is a recipe for success.

    AA1XQUAN.png

    This example is where it works well. Looks like a standard shape for Ireland (&most teams) - Crowley in Blue behind the pods.

    Untitled Image

    I think it begs the question can Casey/Doak play that way if JGP is injured/subbed?

    Its a good question. In short - I think they can still play the same way. Just not as effectively.

    Casey/Doak arent as good as decision makers, passers and dont have as good running and offloading game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    There was a stat from the weekend too that of Ireland's 141 offensive rucks in the game v Wales, 94.3% of them had no more than 1 Welsh player competing for the ball; so a very deliberate strategy to not try to compete on the deck and fan out in defence.

    I thought we were very guilty on Friday night of trying to play too much in the wrong parts of the field and just burning energy for no real reason, and of some poor decision making in attack.

    The 'exit' after Crowley's try was a good example of this - we gather the restart inside our 22, have a couple of carries that go essentially nowhere, and then Jack Crowley (absolutely inexplicably to me) kicks a contestable cross-field kick over to Balacoune's wing, landing inside Ireland's own 10m line. It was a baffling decison, where our odds of regathering were no more than 50%, and ultimately the Welsh scored from the possession they re-gathered on this.

    We didn't have any variety to our kicking in play - we simply hoisted garryowens all day long.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 818 ✭✭✭MangleBadger


    I think we saw the difference with Casey and JGP in the Italy match. Casey takes on a lot less of the decision making. His default was to pass to SP. And Sam was not always in a position to make anything happen with the play.

    Sam had 36 passes and 9 kicks. Craig had 56 passes and 6 kicks.

    JGP had 28 passes and 5 kicks. Jack had 16 passes and no kicks.

    JGP was on for 5 minutes more than Jack so its not quite like for like with supply. But when you break it down roughly Sam was getting somewhere around 70-80% of the ball from Craig compared to Jack getting about 50% when he came on. That is putting a significantly greater portion of the playmaking responsibility on Sam and something which he didn't do great with. If he isn't in a position to move the play on with another pass the ball should be going to Stu or one of the forwards until he is the right call for the play. Whether that responsibility sits with Sam for not directing Craig or for Craig defaulting to Sam I don't know. Probably somewhere in between.

    On the other hand Jack has played very well as that extra centre carrying option out the back with the service from JGP. He is obviously a better runner than Sam with a higher tempo and is very good at the short passing game. Frawley probably also fits this mould better than Sam also as he is also a very good 12. Having Sam on the bench probably necessitates a shift in gameplan slightly.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,306 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    We didn't have any variety to our kicking in play - we simply hoisted garryowens all day long.

    I was actually chatting coming out of the stadium on Friday night about this. We did zero tactical kicking, it was just 50-50 bombs all game. It felt like Wales were trying to cut out passing channels but we didn't try keep them honest in defence.

    I think the first kick in behind might have been Joe McCarthy's?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,766 ✭✭✭leakyboots


    We also didn't win hardly any garryowens… most of Crowley's were on the money and we got a contester up there… but we didn't win or regather hardly any. Same against France. Our aerial game is very poor this tournament bar against England I think



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,658 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, agreed, it wasn't the quality of the garryowens, but even with the best will in the world it's so hard to bank on retaining a very high percentage of those I think.

    As someone else made the point before - you wouldn't necessarily look at that French back three from Round 1 and think they were going to dominate us in the air to the extent they did. LBB is a fabulous player, but his strengths don't necessarily lie in the quality of his high fielding. Leinster have made hay on a couple of occasions in the past by absolutely tormenting and exploiting Thomas Ramos in the backfield in some of those European Cup semis. A lot of it looks to be luck as well.

    The most frustrating aspect, and it's a recurring aspect for me watching Ireland (and Leinster fwiw) was the inability of our players on the pitch to identify what wasn't working and pivot to a slightly different approach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,789 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Thornley says TOB in, Stockdale out. I’ve no beef with that but Stockdale should bench, not Aki

    IRELAND (possible v Scotland): J Osborne; R Baloucoune, G Ringrose, S McCloskey, T O’Brien; J Crowley, J Gibson-Park; T O’Toole, D Sheehan, T Furlong; J McCarthy, J Ryan; T Beirne, J van der Flier, C Doris (capt).

    Replacements: R Kelleher, M Milne, T Clarkson, J Conan, N Timoney, C Casey/N Doak, C Frawley, N Aki.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭SaoPaulo41


    Irish Indos possible team

    Possible Ireland team: J Osborne; R Baloucoune, G Ringrose, S McCloskey, T O’Brien; J Crowley, J Gibson-Park; T O’Toole, D Sheehan, T Furlong; J McCarthy, J Ryan; T Beirne, J van der Flier, C Doris (capt).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Farrell just can't help himself with having a centre on the bench. Stupifying choice if true



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    I'm very happy with that, Stockdale did nothing last week to earn a place, TOB possibly just rested last week for this, hopefully Doak makes the bench



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