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Women's rights under attack

17810121316

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    You did say it. I was quoting your actual words: here's the post:

    Except you didn't quote my actual words in the previous post. You did just now, but that's not what you said previously , was it.
    You falsely claimed I made generalised claim about all gender-critical people. which is complete nonsense.
    Please don't misquote me. That's not an unreasonable request.

    "Trans-men are women, unless they look like men"

    Nobody said that. You are misrepresenting an argument that you disagree with. That's dishonest.

    That was a para-phrased response to a specific poster, that specifically referenced to appearance affecting how a person is perceive. Maybe you didn't understand that because you didn't read the comments. That's not my fault
    And it's not dishonest, or a misrepresentation, or disagreement. Poster in question has since confirmed that stand by that view. They've literally agreed with the situation I was outlining.

    You realise that your no the spoke person for anyone else here. I don't think you should speak for others.
    I've welcomed you to post your own view on the question.

    You realise that the term "transgender people" is an almost meaningless category.

    I think we all understand what "transgender people". Population wise, they may be almost meaningless. But that's doesn;t stop some people dedicating a lot of headspace to the matter.

    As an aside, I don't think a commercial publication by an anti-trans activist is a great source of information. Likewise the opposite by a trans-activist.

    So yes, there absolutely is a problem with girls who wish to be boys, and if you read my posts I've talked more about those girls than I have about adult males. However the problem is an entirely different one. These children are being pushed into a pathway of medication and surgery instead of getting the mental health care they need.

    I didn't asked you about children. Or mention children. Misdirection.

    It seems like your purposely avoiding the question. Perhaps unintentionally.
    Which is essentially the point I was making. People with hardline views, tend to ignore that entire side, as it's difficult to reconcile with the hardlines.

    Two things here: Eddie Izzard used to say he was a cross dresser. He now says he is a woman whenever that suits, but is still a man when that's better for work purposes. He uses women's toilets. He claims to have "girl phase" and "boy phase", which for someone in their 60s is in itself a bit odd, but, whatever.

    By your thinking, though, is Eddie Izzard a man, a woman, someone who genuinely flips from one to the other, or just a fake?

    I think Eddie used to use the phrase transvestite. Which is no longer ever used, for obvious reasons. I'm sure his personal identity didn't change over night. I was only ever slightly aware of his comedy, recall he changed between the two a lot. I don't think it's surprising that he settles on one why over time.
    I don't see an issue with him playing a man. It's acting. I also have no issue with a woman playing a man. I find it weird to have an issue with that.

    Neither of those issues are relevant for FTM transidentifying women. Hence why women don't care if biological women whose drug use has led to them growing a beard wish to use the men's changing rooms. I'm sure you can see that really.

    As for the women in the bolded part, men's changing room doesn't effect them, so I doubt that's ever been a question to any women.

    The question is do they care if that FTM trans-man, with a full beard, and a muscular frame, uses the women's facilities. That's the outcome of a trans exclusionary view.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    Tomorrow is International Women's Day. Something I heard in the last week or so struck a chord with me: how come so many groups want to celebrate the achievements of women, while allowing anyone to be a woman?

    There was an excellent contribution by Helen Joyce on Newstalk yesterday:



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    So I did quote your actual words but you're still denying you said it.

    Okaay.

    The rest of yourpost seems to be complaining that people you disagree with aren't saying what you think their opinions should be so that you can prove they're wrong.

    That's a pretty big straw man.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    And even stranger than that is Dublin Zoo's attempt to celebrate "mammies" using pictures of a man in drag.

    image.png

    Imagine using blackface to celebrate black history month. Yet women are not allowed to find womanface offensive.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    And in New Zealand, "Auckland Government Women’s Network are featuring a bloke in a frock as the keynote speaker at their International Women’s Day (IWD) event this year." (from Katrina Biggs' Substack).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    If my son was any way inclined to be taking me out for a Father's day treat, I'd be inclined to identify as a mother to see if I could get two treats per year! 😀



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    I hadn't seen that one. FFS 😫

    Although I did see that Kelly Jay Keen was forcibly removed by Nottigham Police for daring to ask about single sex spaces at a women's event.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭aero2k


    I must admit that International Women's Day always has me a bit conflicted. On the one hand, celebrating achievements like those of Marie Curie, Amelia Earhart, etc is a terrific way to highlight role models for young women who might be hesitant to follow what might seem to be a stereotypical male path, in a "if you can't see it, you can't be it" way. On the other hand, some of the celebrations can end up having a bang of "isn't she great…for a woman" about them.

    And that last phrase reminds me of a song I used to send to my female colleagues on IWD:

    I'm Gonna Be An Engineer, song lyrics

    song-lyrics.gif

    When I was a little girl I wished I was a boy,
    I tagged along behind the gang and wore my corduroys.
    Everybody said I only did it to annoy,
    But I was gonna be an engineer.

    Mamma said, "Why can't you be a lady?
    Your duty is to make me the mother of a pearl;
    Wait until you're older, dear,
    And maybe you'll be glad that you're a girl.

    Dainty as a Dresden statue, gentle as a Jersey cow,
    Smooth as silk, gives cream and milk,
    Learn to coo, learn to moo,
    That's what you do to be a lady, now.

    When I went to school I learned to write and how to read,
    History, geography and home economy,
    And typing is a skill that every girl is sure to need,
    To while away the extra time until the time to breed,
    And then they had the nerve to ask, what would I like to be?
    I says, "I'm gonna be an engineer!"

    "No, you only need to learn to be a lady,
    The duty isn't yours, for to try to run the world,
    An engineer could never have a baby,
    Remember, dear, that you're a girl."

    She's smart --- for a woman.
    I wonder how she got that way?
    You get no choice, you get no voice,
    Just stay mum, pretend you're dumb.
    That's how you come to be a lady, today.
    This song was originally posted on protestsonglyrics.net
    Well, I started as a typist but I studied on the sly;
    Working out the day and night so I could qualify,
    And every time the boss came in, he pinched me on the thigh,
    Said, "I've never had an engineer!"
    "You owe it to the job to be a lady,
    The duty of the staff is to give the boss a whirl,
    The wages that you get are crummy, maybe,
    But it's all you get, 'cause you're a girl."

    Then Jimmy came along and we set up a conjugation,
    We were busy every night with loving recreation;
    I spent my days at work so he could get an education,
    And now he's an engineer!

    He said: "I know you'll always be a lady,
    The duty of my darling is to love me all her life,
    Could an engineer look after or obey me?
    Remember, dear, that you're my wife!"

    As soon a Jimmy got a job, I studied hard again,
    Then busy at me turret-lathe a year or two, and then,
    The morning that the twins were born, Jimmy says to them,
    "Your mother was an engineer!"
    "You owe it to the kids to be a lady,
    Dainty as a dish-rag, faithful as a chow,
    Stay at home, you got to mind the baby,
    Remember you're a mother now!"

    Every time I turn around there's something else to do,
    Cook a meal or mend a sock or sweep a floor or two,
    Listening to Jimmy Young - it makes me want to spew,
    I was gonna be an engineer.

    I only wish that I could be a lady,
    I'd do the lovely things that a lady's s'posed to do,
    I wouldn't even mind if only they would pay me,
    Then I could be a person too.

    What price for a woman?
    You can buy her for a ring of gold,
    To love and obey, without any pay,
    You get a cook and a nurse for better or worse
    You don't need a purse when a lady is sold.

    Oh, but now the times are harder and me Jimmy's got the sack;
    I went down to Vicker's, they were glad o have me back.
    But I'm a third-class citizen, my wages tell me that;
    But I'm a first-class engineer!

    The boss he says "We pay you as a lady,
    You only got the job because I can't afford a man,
    With you I keep the profits high as may be,
    You're just a cheaper pair of hands."

    You got one fault, you're a woman;
    You're not worth the equal pay.
    A bitch or a tart, you're nothing but heart,
    Shallow and vain, you've got no brain.

    Well, I listened to my mother and I joined a typing pool,
    Listened to my lover and I put him through his school,
    If I listen to the boss, I'm just a bloody fool,
    And an underpaid engineer.
    I been a sucker ever since I was a baby,
    As a daughter, as a mother, as a lover, as a dear,
    But I'll fight them as a woman, not a lady,
    I'll fight them as an engineer!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,202 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Instead of people getting hung up on the stupid unfunny panto dame Zoo (bad) joke, the reality is that there are no comments on this and the type of sentence - a real threat to womens rights and safety. No way should this be a suspended sentence. He had his belt in his hand ffs. Someone was looking down on that lady, she was very lucky.

    https://www.thejournal.ie/stalking-suspended-sentence-dublin-rape-crisis-centre-6976239-Mar2026/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    These are entirely different things, and I have no lessons to take from anyone about my opinions on male violence.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,202 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Yes, because one is real issue that impacts every woman.

    The other is a bad joke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Blackface too, then, right? Just a bad joke, and any black person who bothers getting annoyed about it should be told by white people that there are real issues that they should be objecting to instead. Ditto for all those black people complaining about the John Davidson thing at the BAFTAs. Am I right?

    Or would you not dream of telling a black person what aspects of racism they're allowed to care about?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    And, remaining Down Under, we also have Sal Grover, who lost a court case to allow lesbians to have a women-only group, being refused entry to an International Women's Day event for… trans women:

    So biological women are not allowed to have their own events, but trans women are allowed.

    The irony of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,202 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    Personally, I feel if you have any issue with the zoo ad but haven't commented on the suspended sentence given to the creepy stalker then you are very far removed from what real issues are facing women in Ireland on a day to day basis.

    Youve posted this in The Ladies Lounge but responses from women who say they are not directly impacted by trans people are being disregarded here.

    Talk about Andrew Tate, Epstein files, womens safety, Trad wife crap...no, focus has to be on the likes of a bloke in drag advertising free passes to Dublin zoo.

    Post edited by anewme on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    If I commented on every insufficient sentence given to every man who commits an act of harassment against a woman I'd have to give up my work. I've started threads on male violence against women, and been told I'm a man hater for it. Have a look at the abuse I got from MALE posters on my thread about Gisele Pelicot for instance. (This is for any posters who might wonder whether you have a point there, because I don't imagine that you are actually interested in MVAWG except as a way to try to shut down discussions you don't like)

    I've no idea what you mean about ignoring women's comments. Everyone has their opinion, and this isn't a poll.

    But it's very striking that you have nothing substantive to say, just personal abuse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,202 ✭✭✭✭anewme


    The facts - i have got something substantive to say - is just does not suit your Agenda.

    The fact that both the stalker case and the zoo drama happened almost on the same day, but you choose to highlight a man in a dress advertising.a free ticket vs a real and present threat to womens safety would give rise to question the authenticity of this thread.

    The Rape Crisis Centre spoke out about the suspended sentence saying the "Terrifying ordeal" " must surely mean more than a suspended sentence". I dont believe they have commented on the "Malahide Mammy" character advertising the zoo. Wonder why that it?

    You are not getting any personal abuse on this thread. From anyone. But you are calling other people ignorant and rounding on them if they don't agree.

    Because this thread was in the Ladies Lounge - I expected it to be better quality discussing real issues rather than the same aul stuff rehashed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Personally I feel if you're telling women what the "real" dangers to women are, and are are insisting they ignore part of those real dangers then you are very far removed from women's lives generally.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,789 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Personally I feel if you're telling women what the "real" dangers to women are, and are are insisting they ignore part of those real dangers then you are very far removed from women's lives generally

    do you assume that anyone who disagrees with you is a man?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    Nobody is "assigned" their sex at birth. They can express a gender that's not associated with their sex later on, but this "assigned" thing, regarding what's observed and immutable, is such incoherent nonsense.

    And disagreeing that sex (immutable) can be disregarded for gender (behaviour) is not being anti trans or denial that trans people exist. Again, stupid expressions designed to shut people up, by folk who can't cope with people not thinking exactly as they do about anything.

    And to say every woman with a beard is indistinguishable from a man is just more dishonesty.

    Also, it's inconvenient I know, but women (and men) who are feminist, gay, socialist leaning, atheist, pro choice... make up a large contingent of those who are gender critical - people who despise the right-wing crowd with whom you so gleefully like to force-team them. You actually have more in common with the latter than you'd like to think, when it comes to women. You want to shut down those uppity women who don't agree with you on everything, you want to disregard any concerns, and you want to lie, misrepresent and insult women unless they agree with you. No doubt you think you're far from a misogynist, but the way you speak about women in this context... very much has that outcome. Your posts are just very authoritarian in general - policing people to oblivion.

    Post edited by Mother Shaboobu on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    Of course Volchitsa is weary from yet another male on female violence story - but most of us are, male and female. We're always commenting on them - it's obviously soul destroying. We're nearly universally in agreement with that. It's really not necessary to comment the obvious on absolutely every one of those stories - you'd never be off your phone/computer.

    But expressing annoyance at a dude in a poster marking mothers' day does not mitigate the above. I think Volchitsa and anyone who values respect for women should be able to express that annoyance without being grilled or called a hypocrite.

    Post edited by Mother Shaboobu on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    Exactly. I don't comment on every single one because, well. I've commented on plenty of them, and no doubt will do so again. But I'm not going to take on the responsibility of commenting on every single incident that someone else thinks I should. 😏

    The thing is, male violence against women is age-old, and certainly won't be fixed by a few more posts in the internet. So insisting that someone needs to have commented on Y before their comments on X can be discussed is just insisting on virtue signalling, of which there is already far too much IMO.

    As to whether or not it matters that men dressed as women are being paid for contracts that women are therefore not getting - well for starters I would have thought that it should matter to anyone who cares about women being taken seriously in the workplace.

    Unless we're to suppose that James Patrice appears for free? I doubt that somehow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    Agreed regarding Linehan - he's lost it (although generally, "don't be online so much" isn't useful advice) and with your second and third paragraphs.

    Striking to me though how you didn't get pushback regarding "chap in a dress", nor did the guy who used the term "tranny"... but women here saying far less crude things? Interestingly different story.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    Dishonesty, bullying and downright imbecilic takes (which they know are imbecilic) are all they've got.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    Well when you don't read them whatsoever, you of course can pretend that they're whatever you want them to be (a child's tactic). There are countless reasons given by women regarding concerns for women and girls - and you know there are - but bullying, lying, misrepresenting, gas-lighting... that's all you've got rather than a counter argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    counter argument.

    Pointless arguing with die hard bigots who pretend to care about women's rights.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    Yup, no counter argument so does the whole "pointless arguing" thing along with lies. Second example on this thread.

    If there was a counter argument he'd be quick to spell it out. Those "I'm feminist so long as she agrees with me about everything" dudes in a nutshell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,016 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    For people who think men claiming to be women has no link with (other) men abusing or stalking women, here's an example of why they're wrong:

    The UK Independent has compiled a list of 50 influential women for IWD. One of these "women" is Paris Lees, a man who went to prison for a violent robbery and who has said he (as a woman) loved to be sexually objectified and treated like a ‘piece of meat’ by other men - and that this did not make him less of a feminist.

    A pioneering and influential voice for transgender representation in the UK media, Paris Lees’ own story leapt onto our screens last year in the BBC’s What It Feels Like For a Girl. Adapted from Lees’ memoir of the same name, the powerful and critically acclaimed coming-of-age story was described as “urgent” by The Independent’s critic Nick Hilton and earned praise from all corners of the British media

    So Lees is apparently able to unironically explain to the world "What It Feels Like For a Girl" - and that includes enjoying being catcalled and treated like a piece of meat.

    And we're really supposed to think that isn't a harmful message to send out to young men? That women "like it really"? When it's actually a MAN saying that, and yet this man is put on a list of influential women and referred to as "she" in multiple fawning reviews and interviews??

    Last summer I went to Ibiza, Spain, where I was catcalled, sexually objectified, and treated like a piece of meat by men the entire week. And it was absolutely awesome. It got to the point where I couldn’t even be bothered to follow any of it up. Every time some hot guy got fresh with me, I just thought, OK, I could **** you, but there might be some even hotter stud serving it up later.

    Paris Lees is not the only such man aping hypersexualised women, by any means. Other trans women who've won acclaim for telling us what it's like to be a woman are Torrey Peters, with Detransition, Baby which includes a description of how it's so "validating" to be hit during sex because that's what women experience and not men. Or there's "Juno" Dawson, chosen for IWD plaudits by MP Stella Creasy. Dawso's writing includes several variants on the nugget that being a woman means "getting f¨cked, because that's what a woman is". Also claims that there are a lot of gay men for whom being gay is "a consolation prize because they couldn't be women".

    image.png

    And just to be clear, I'm NOT saying it's ONLY about transidentiifying men. I'm not. How ever they are part of the problem.

    More generally, here's an article by the fabulous Julie Bindel that explains why the trend, mostly led by men but with the complicity of a certain section of "appeasing" women, of minimising sexual harassment of girls by pretending (among other things) that prostitution is just work, or that it's acceptable to require women in the Hooters restaurants sign a contract prior to starting work that waives their right to sue the organisation for sexual harassment incites men into harassing women. Because it's really about men's desire to consider women as mere sexual objects for them. And that takes multiple forms.

    Bodies for sale - The feminist fix: Sexual harassment will never end if men can pay for it

    image.png

    What is the feminist fix to sexual harassment? We must, first and foremost, stop separating porn and prostitution from male violence, and recognise that a world in which commercial sexual exploitation proliferates, boys will grow up internalising the message that women and girls are there to be used and abused at the whim of men. There is no point bringing in additional laws when the current ones are not being implemented. Making misogyny a hate crime is not, as some women have claimed, the answer. All this would do is give the criminal justice system an additional excuse to not criminalise rape and domestic violence. Sexual harassment happens because women are objectified. True liberation for women can only be realised when our bodies are no longer seen as the property of men.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 304 ✭✭Mother Shaboobu


    It's grim. But apparently nobody highlighting it really cares about women (according to people who look far more like they don't care about women). Vast majority of transwomen obviously aren't remotely like those in Volchitsa's post, but acceptance of the latter - and not recognition of how horrendous it is, due to the preposterous nonsense of gender over sex - is the concern.

    Post edited by Mother Shaboobu on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,671 ✭✭✭✭Boggles


    As the saying goes, never go full Graham Linehan.



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