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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 17,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    Wales don't have 40+ International standard players , they don't really have 15 right now..

    Just a measure of the desperation they are feeling , literally giving anyone with a pulse a chance to see if they are remotely better than the other guy.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    like i said in my previous post, we already ARE looking at alternatives for the 13 jersey for the RWC in 2 1.5 years time.

    the context of my argument is that i would have no issue with Henshaw in the 23 jersey for the next two games.

    Anyay, you'll be delighted that Tom Farrell, one the aforementioned alternatives, (the same age as Henshaw BTW) is covering the 13 position from the bench tomorrow.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭TRC10


    England put 48 on them a month ago and 68 a year ago. We should be aiming to do the same



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    who have we looked at? Ferrell getting an odd cap here and there is not realistically trying out options. None of the viable options at club level have been given a proper shot. Centre is a serious issue fire us, our attack is massively deficient through there relative to our peers.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    im sure we are aiming …. France put 54 this year and 43 last year on them.

    But i certainly wont be using it as stick to beat our lads with if we dont hit 50.

    We traditionally do not beat wales by big numbers in the 6 nations, and i dont really see any reason for that to change tomorrow. As i said, a 20 - 25 point margin with a cohesive performance would be viewed as a success in my eyes. On top of that we will be debuting Doak, getting more minutes into Balou, giving Stockdale another chance, testing out TOT at LH, seeing how Farrell goes at this level again.

    theres plenty more 'wins' to be had than just scoreboard.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭TRC10


    We traditionally do not beat wales by big numbers in the 6 nations,

    We traditionally allow bad teams to drag us down to their level and end up limping over the line against sides we’re much better than. Wales haven’t won a 6N game this World Cup cycle. They’ve won 2 games since the World Cup, both against Japan. They’re the worst team in the tournament. We’re at home, off the back of a great performance, with a strong, experienced team out.

    Personally , I think a 20 point win would be pretty underwhelming considering what France and England did to them. Do we not see ourselves as being on their level?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,907 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah, but having done that to Wales, England then lost by huge margins to Scotland and Ireland so who cares?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I'll be gobsmacked if TOT doesn't strugle badly



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I think it strengthens my point. England aren’t that good a team and still put 48 points past Wales. I just think we should be setting our sights a bit higher than a 20 point win. I think Wales would see a 20 point defeat as a positive result given where they are to be honest



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Well they lost the corresponding fixture last year by 9 points....

    So I don't think they would view widening that to 20 plus to be any level of success.

    At the end of the day if you judge a teams performance by the scoreboard then why bother watching the game..... Just wait till the push notification to clutch your pearls.



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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,907 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It does not, it completely mitigates your point.

    Running up scores against weak teams is ultimately an irrelevance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    It's a peculiar kink for Irleand though, even in our absolute pomp we rarely put very big scores on weaker teams, but we put the squeeze on big teams quite often. England, France, SA and the ABs included.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    This. I'd rather beat Wales by 10-15 but actually learn something rather than winning by 30+ and learn nothing.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Like I said previously, there has been 11 different players play in the center for Ireland over the last two years.

    If you want to know who they are you can look them up for yourself.

    Whether you consider the games meaningful or not is only hubris on your part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭TRC10


    What do we learn by the tried and trusted coughing and spluttering to victory against a poor team?

    At least a big performance gives us momentum and keeps the good vibes going after Twickenham. What does a narrow victory do other than raises the same questions that were there 3 weeks ago?



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    If you are using the term "tried and trusted" to describe tomorrow's team then that unfortunately doesn't really reflect well on your limit of knowledge about the sport, or most sports in general.

    The most common descriptor about this team selection is "experimental"

    Farrell could have decided to stick with the 23 that succeeded so well in Twickenham and most level headed commentators would have been hard pushed to argue against that.

    Instead he's made changes for changes sake, and STILL the perma miserables complain.....

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,326 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The most common descriptor about this team selection is "experimental"

    Whoever would be calling the team “experimental” would be deluded.

    The only player in that starting XV who isn’t either first choice or very experienced is Nick Timoney, and he’s 30 years old and should have gotten a start years ago.

    The other changes he made from Twickenham are O’Toole, Kelleher, Conan and Stockdale. All well established players. Test Lions in the case of Kelleher and Conan. 9 of the starting 15 are 30+ years old. Stockdale won POTT in 2018. Playing him isn’t an experiment ffs.

    So make no mistake, it’s an old, experienced team being put out. And I fully understand why he’s done it. It’s crucial that Ireland put in another big performance and back up the Twickenham win. Otherwise the same questions will be getting asked that were there post the France and Italy games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,973 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    "Farrell needs to build depth".

    Farrell makes changes to try and build depth

    "No, not that depth."



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://archive.ph/8Zhui

    You're welcome.

    Nobody gets capped just for the sake of it, they’ve got to earn it,” Farrell said.

    “That’s why I don’t like the word ‘rotation’, it’s not. You’ve got to earn it. You don’t just get a freebie at rotating just because that’s what we think needs to happen.

    “We do those type of things because people have earned the right to do that, we think, and at the same time, we’re hoping that they’re able to deal with the occasion and the big game that it is for some of them coming in who are new to this type of level, that they’re able to flourish and therefore able to carry on competing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Take out the summer tour and that number is significantly reduced



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  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 45,377 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Why stop there??

    Again... You considering what games are meaningful or meaningless is pure hubris on your part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,673 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Nah, it's a crock to say that Farrell has looked to seriously invest in new talent for the centre position. It's been Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw and McCloskey for basically the entirety of his reign. One off appearances in Nov, or playing in what amounts to an A team summer tour doesn't count.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Doak will likely debut v Wales. To my mind we have a load of centers who've played, still no obvious 13 behind Ringose though, and Doak is coming in as a nine in a position where we are light. Otherwise we have new guys developed on the wings, at full back, back row and front row between this and last season. I'm pleased with how Farrell has changed up his selection policy with an eye to the World Cup. He's made incredible progress and we stilll have 3+ campaigns to go before the WC. There are also a number of other players on the periphery who will likely cap this year. Most importantly the team is finally playing well, both attack and defence have shown real signs of starting to stick so far while line out woes are greatly diminished. Still issues with the scrum but momentum and progress are all evident.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,085 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The "doesn't count" argument baffles me. As though a player can only show what he can do with a prolonged spell in a full-strength team against Tier 1 opposition? And of course, if he gets a chance through another player's injury or suspension, that "doesn't count" either.

    You looked bang average against England A? Don't worry, here's the starting jersey against the Springboks, just go out and enjoy yourself! What could go wrong?

    The reality is that some players get a chance and seize it, others do not. That upset a few people last time I said it but it remains the case.

    Tom Farrell seized his chance; I doubt Andy Farrell is blind to the fact that Tom is 32 years old but presumably he doesn't think Postlethwaite is there yet. The other names that get thrown around for centre (Gavin, Forde, Cooney) are grand players but not remotely hard done by. Maybe I don't watch enough Connacht to judge the first two but nothing I've seen of Cooney tells me this is a guy we need to fast-track into the Ireland set-up.

    We have loads of depth in the centre. If people are just bored of looking at the same names on the team-sheet, that is a different issue. Shiny New Thing Syndrome is grand for internet chat but it's no basis for picking a rugby team.

    It's the day of Six Nations game, our back-line replacements have a grand total of 12 caps between them when there are a lot more experienced players available. What more do we want?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    As brilliant as SMcC is playing (100% agree with him starting all 6N games) these summer and autumn games should be used to get Osborne in at 12.

    This will be his 14th cap and he's never started in his best position!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,477 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Osborne has no divine right to the 12 jersey. If he's the best man for it he'll get the jersey. No doubt he will get a chance, most likely somewhere in those six Nations Championship matches, but McCloskey has waited long enough for his chance, taking the jersey off him so casually would be the sort of s**** call that thankfully Farrell isn't overly prone to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    He'd be right to be pissed off & You know I'm not saying Osborne has a divine right to the jersey.

    Clearly Im looking to the near future. The RWC

    Lets get real - SMcC turns 34 in the summer. Should Ireland be playing him in every single match from now until the RWC?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,436 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Anyone up to writing a preview to start the match thread off?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,986 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    One thing Welsh rugby does not want is pity or derision.

    Times have been tough in recent years and the game in Wales has been in disarray on and off the field.

    Despite this, Welsh rugby does not expect to be laughed as they face Ireland on Friday in another Six Nations date.

    That is exactly what happened this week in an Irish podcast involving former international Andrew Trimble and Hollywood actor Jamie Dornan, with the pair deriding Welsh rugby.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/cwy996ql242o

    Desperate times. Desperate article. Desperate Podcasters.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,996 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    There's two things here. Firstly as long as McCloskey is playing at the level he's at right now then he should be left in there and nobody else should be getting an opportunity against tier 1 opposition.

    Secondly you seem to be of the impression that Osbourne is the best 12 available after McCloskey and that's just your opinion. Personally I think Cathal Forde is better than him and I think if Gavin was switched back there that he's even better.

    So our opinions differ greatly. It's neither of us who'll make the decision as to whose next up for that jersey. I think Osbourne is less likely to get it than anybody. The reason I say this is because he's a utility back right now and it's hard to shake that role once you've been given it.



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