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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah, but having done that to Wales, England then lost by huge margins to Scotland and Ireland so who cares?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I'll be gobsmacked if TOT doesn't strugle badly



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I think it strengthens my point. England aren’t that good a team and still put 48 points past Wales. I just think we should be setting our sights a bit higher than a 20 point win. I think Wales would see a 20 point defeat as a positive result given where they are to be honest



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,924 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Well they lost the corresponding fixture last year by 9 points....

    So I don't think they would view widening that to 20 plus to be any level of success.

    At the end of the day if you judge a teams performance by the scoreboard then why bother watching the game..... Just wait till the push notification to clutch your pearls.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,049 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    It does not, it completely mitigates your point.

    Running up scores against weak teams is ultimately an irrelevance.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,588 ✭✭✭ersatz


    It's a peculiar kink for Irleand though, even in our absolute pomp we rarely put very big scores on weaker teams, but we put the squeeze on big teams quite often. England, France, SA and the ABs included.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    This. I'd rather beat Wales by 10-15 but actually learn something rather than winning by 30+ and learn nothing.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,924 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Like I said previously, there has been 11 different players play in the center for Ireland over the last two years.

    If you want to know who they are you can look them up for yourself.

    Whether you consider the games meaningful or not is only hubris on your part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    What do we learn by the tried and trusted coughing and spluttering to victory against a poor team?

    At least a big performance gives us momentum and keeps the good vibes going after Twickenham. What does a narrow victory do other than raises the same questions that were there 3 weeks ago?



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,924 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    If you are using the term "tried and trusted" to describe tomorrow's team then that unfortunately doesn't really reflect well on your limit of knowledge about the sport, or most sports in general.

    The most common descriptor about this team selection is "experimental"

    Farrell could have decided to stick with the 23 that succeeded so well in Twickenham and most level headed commentators would have been hard pushed to argue against that.

    Instead he's made changes for changes sake, and STILL the perma miserables complain.....

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    The most common descriptor about this team selection is "experimental"

    Whoever would be calling the team “experimental” would be deluded.

    The only player in that starting XV who isn’t either first choice or very experienced is Nick Timoney, and he’s 30 years old and should have gotten a start years ago.

    The other changes he made from Twickenham are O’Toole, Kelleher, Conan and Stockdale. All well established players. Test Lions in the case of Kelleher and Conan. 9 of the starting 15 are 30+ years old. Stockdale won POTT in 2018. Playing him isn’t an experiment ffs.

    So make no mistake, it’s an old, experienced team being put out. And I fully understand why he’s done it. It’s crucial that Ireland put in another big performance and back up the Twickenham win. Otherwise the same questions will be getting asked that were there post the France and Italy games.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,138 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    "Farrell needs to build depth".

    Farrell makes changes to try and build depth

    "No, not that depth."



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,924 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    https://archive.ph/8Zhui

    You're welcome.

    Nobody gets capped just for the sake of it, they’ve got to earn it,” Farrell said.

    “That’s why I don’t like the word ‘rotation’, it’s not. You’ve got to earn it. You don’t just get a freebie at rotating just because that’s what we think needs to happen.

    “We do those type of things because people have earned the right to do that, we think, and at the same time, we’re hoping that they’re able to deal with the occasion and the big game that it is for some of them coming in who are new to this type of level, that they’re able to flourish and therefore able to carry on competing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Take out the summer tour and that number is significantly reduced



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,924 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Why stop there??

    Again... You considering what games are meaningful or meaningless is pure hubris on your part.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    Nah, it's a crock to say that Farrell has looked to seriously invest in new talent for the centre position. It's been Aki, Ringrose, Henshaw and McCloskey for basically the entirety of his reign. One off appearances in Nov, or playing in what amounts to an A team summer tour doesn't count.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,588 ✭✭✭ersatz


    Doak will likely debut v Wales. To my mind we have a load of centers who've played, still no obvious 13 behind Ringose though, and Doak is coming in as a nine in a position where we are light. Otherwise we have new guys developed on the wings, at full back, back row and front row between this and last season. I'm pleased with how Farrell has changed up his selection policy with an eye to the World Cup. He's made incredible progress and we stilll have 3+ campaigns to go before the WC. There are also a number of other players on the periphery who will likely cap this year. Most importantly the team is finally playing well, both attack and defence have shown real signs of starting to stick so far while line out woes are greatly diminished. Still issues with the scrum but momentum and progress are all evident.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,791 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    The "doesn't count" argument baffles me. As though a player can only show what he can do with a prolonged spell in a full-strength team against Tier 1 opposition? And of course, if he gets a chance through another player's injury or suspension, that "doesn't count" either.

    You looked bang average against England A? Don't worry, here's the starting jersey against the Springboks, just go out and enjoy yourself! What could go wrong?

    The reality is that some players get a chance and seize it, others do not. That upset a few people last time I said it but it remains the case.

    Tom Farrell seized his chance; I doubt Andy Farrell is blind to the fact that Tom is 32 years old but presumably he doesn't think Postlethwaite is there yet. The other names that get thrown around for centre (Gavin, Forde, Cooney) are grand players but not remotely hard done by. Maybe I don't watch enough Connacht to judge the first two but nothing I've seen of Cooney tells me this is a guy we need to fast-track into the Ireland set-up.

    We have loads of depth in the centre. If people are just bored of looking at the same names on the team-sheet, that is a different issue. Shiny New Thing Syndrome is grand for internet chat but it's no basis for picking a rugby team.

    It's the day of Six Nations game, our back-line replacements have a grand total of 12 caps between them when there are a lot more experienced players available. What more do we want?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    As brilliant as SMcC is playing (100% agree with him starting all 6N games) these summer and autumn games should be used to get Osborne in at 12.

    This will be his 14th cap and he's never started in his best position!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,413 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Osborne has no divine right to the 12 jersey. If he's the best man for it he'll get the jersey. No doubt he will get a chance, most likely somewhere in those six Nations Championship matches, but McCloskey has waited long enough for his chance, taking the jersey off him so casually would be the sort of s**** call that thankfully Farrell isn't overly prone to.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    He'd be right to be pissed off & You know I'm not saying Osborne has a divine right to the jersey.

    Clearly Im looking to the near future. The RWC

    Lets get real - SMcC turns 34 in the summer. Should Ireland be playing him in every single match from now until the RWC?



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 5,320 Mod ✭✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    Anyone up to writing a preview to start the match thread off?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    One thing Welsh rugby does not want is pity or derision.

    Times have been tough in recent years and the game in Wales has been in disarray on and off the field.

    Despite this, Welsh rugby does not expect to be laughed as they face Ireland on Friday in another Six Nations date.

    That is exactly what happened this week in an Irish podcast involving former international Andrew Trimble and Hollywood actor Jamie Dornan, with the pair deriding Welsh rugby.

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/cwy996ql242o

    Desperate times. Desperate article. Desperate Podcasters.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,758 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    There's two things here. Firstly as long as McCloskey is playing at the level he's at right now then he should be left in there and nobody else should be getting an opportunity against tier 1 opposition.

    Secondly you seem to be of the impression that Osbourne is the best 12 available after McCloskey and that's just your opinion. Personally I think Cathal Forde is better than him and I think if Gavin was switched back there that he's even better.

    So our opinions differ greatly. It's neither of us who'll make the decision as to whose next up for that jersey. I think Osbourne is less likely to get it than anybody. The reason I say this is because he's a utility back right now and it's hard to shake that role once you've been given it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,678 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    I think people are looking at this match as being against Wales historically and not Wales 2026.

    When we played Italy who are a good bit better than Wales players were "rested" but now they are "dropped". This is the game more than any where we should have a bit of squad rotation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭AbusesToilets


    The issue, for me at least, is that post WC we have had an aging group in the centres, who are playing well below their previous high standards. They've been persisted with, despite many younger alternatives playing well at the Provinces. Our attack has suffered, in no small part, due to the dearth of creativity and threat offered through the centre. McCloskey has gone a long way towards rectifying that, but he's also old unfortunately. Ringrose can seemingly have an unlimited number of poor performances, without coming under pressure. Farrell doesn't carry all the water for that, Cullen has been far too slow to back youth in the centre too.

    It's not shiny new thing syndrome at this point. It's recognising that a younger player genuinely offers more upside than the incumbent, which offsets the lack of experience. Something that they can gain by being played, here and now, rather than 12 months from now if/when the wheels fall off one of the lads in situ, and we're put in a bind when Farrell's hand is forced.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭Downlinz


    The RWC is next year, there's no reason for age concerns for a player who has shown zero signs of decline. If anything Stu looks quicker and sharper recently, he'll be fine for the RWC timeframe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Stu is on fire. Not concerned that his form is going to go off a cliff.

    Still have age concerns though (injury/age). He gets injured, and they play who? Bundee? Robbie?

    Im sure Farrell wont go to RWC with 35 year old Stu & 37 year old Aki as his tried and tested.

    Its prudent that he gets time in to an alternative at 12. The outstanding candidate* is Osborne.

    This summer is the time to do it.

    *Considering age profile of alternatives and Henshaws age profile and injury record.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    I know what you mean and I hope Ireland come flying out of the traps tonight for a number of reasons:
    Firstly, Left wing and LH look like a little weak. A good start will help their respective defensive and scrum issues/pressures.

    Those two selections indicate to me that Farrell is in someway treating Wales as "Wales 2026".

    If Wales start well and score an early try this will be anything but an easy BP win.

    I think Ireland will win and with a BP but they have to start well. Dont give Wales a sniff.

    Really want to see JC 'kick-on', loads of room for improvement and would love to see more of him running with the ball (nice break v Eng) and making those wider passes when the break is on out wide.

    Hoping a fast start will also mean Doak can get a good 30mins to show what he can do.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,224 ✭✭✭TRC10


    as long as McCloskey is playing at the level he's at right now then he should be left in there and nobody else should be getting an opportunity against tier 1 opposition.

    And therein lies the problem ladies and gents.

    Stu is 34. He might be able to continue his form through to the World Cup. But given his age, there’s a good chance his form drops. Or he gets injured. What then? What’s our solution? 37 year old Bundee Aki?

    That’s where we are right now. Praying for dear life that a 34 year old continues to be excellent and available, otherwise it’s an out of form 37 year old who can’t even start for his province.



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