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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Completely agree on Sexton re: learning his trade elsewhere 1st. I'd apply that to a number of the other coaches in the Irish set-up.

    I'll give him this though; at least he has come out this week and owned the coaching mistakes they made in Paris.

    “I felt even before the French game, maybe underdid a couple of things, and then probably got the balance right against Italy. So hopefully get the right balance this week.”


    What did he feel was underdone before the Six Nations defeat to France in Paris?

    “Well, we knew that the game was going to be a certain way,” replied Sexton.

    “And when you’ve got a short lead-in time to a game like France, we tried to prioritiseise things and probably just didn’t do enough of, you know, the ball in the air, the live contests, picking up the scraps.
    “Now, maybe I’m just being critical of myself because that didn’t go that well and we were a little bit unlucky in a couple of instances. We improved things in the second half, but yeah, just putting more of an emphasis on that over the last week and into this week.”

    It was surprising to hear that Ireland may not have spent enough training time on the aerial contest and winning scraps ahead of the France clash, given that the contestable kicking game was such a central aspect of their game plan in Paris.

    That is refreshingly honest to hear from an Irish coach.

    I still have a real gripe with what Farrell said after Paris.

    "You've got to show a bit of fight and intent and we lacked a bit of that in the first half, which is very disappointing."

    He was wrong to do that and it wasnt the real issue. At all. That was a head coach struggling for answers. The issue was his selections and his gameplan. The latter no doubt heavily swayed by Sextons coaching 'strategy' based on what we heard from him previously on the kicking game.

    Of the 6 players he dropped after Paris I expect only James Ryan and the two wingers will keep their place. Which will further undermine his unnecessary comments.

    The only person in the Irish setup to have stood up and taken some ownership of the performances has been Sexton. Fair play to him.👏

    More importantly hes also the only person who spoke brilliantly about the racist abuse that Edogbo received.

    "It's horrible to see that in this day and age, it still exists like that," said Ireland assistant coach Sexton.

    "In terms of how he is, he's good. I don't think he would have paid too much attention to it, and I don't know if he would have even seen most of it.

    "He's a pretty humble guy, really level-headed, but it's not right, some of the comments that were made.

    "I feel for him, I feel for his family, it marred a pretty special day for him."

    Again fair play to Sexton.👍️

    I cannot wait for the day when the Edogbo, Prendergast and Ward brothers all line out in the same team to represent IRELAND.💪



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,041 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    By gar I love a good mass.

    In fairness to the players I think Farrell might be the issue here. We saw at the start of this season both Prendergast and Crowley playing some very good rugby for their respective clubs before the Autumn Internationals. Something happened in the AIs, and I think it's happening again now in the 6N. Maybe it's confidence, I'm not sure, not my pay grade, but the change in the 2 playmakers came when they linked up with the Irish team and Farrell is the man in charge there. I'm not saying he needs to go but he needs to consider if he's doing something wrong.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    He's talking about the situation in the scrum. It has nothing to do with Farrell.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,041 ✭✭✭✭Red Silurian


    I was talking more generally while at the same time pointing out my love for the mass idea



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,433 ✭✭✭OldRio




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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Fair enough, but at the end of the day, the primary issue with Ireland is not the 10s.

    The play from 1-8 has fallen off a cliff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 oso92


    IMO, Kelleher is class around the field - it's just a different type of class. He gives us a real punch i tight carries that Sheehan doesn't (who is much, much better in the loose). He (Kelleher) is also a greater rucker - again, something Dan isn't as good at or doesn't do as much because he's given licence to roam.

    I'd be inclined to give Kelleher the start, and bring dan on with 20-30. Could give us a lot of energy.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,780 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    But he started for Ireland in the Autumn Internationals before then. His Irish career started before he played a Champions cup game.

    The post that I first quoted by you didn't mention the Six nations.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Ok, but that is an entirely different point to the post that started this whole conversation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    The best 13 in Ulster isn't Postlethwaite. It is James Hume. And he is a player who always brings 'intent' to the field. Postlethwaite can play very well at 12 indeed at 12 and 13 but Hume at the moment is a better 13.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,795 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    His Irish career started before he played a Champions cup game.

    He played three CC games in the season before his Irish debut.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,681 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    That's also not true - he played in three Champions Cup games the preceding season (23/24) before he made his Irish debut.

    When Sam Prendergast made his Irish debut, he had played 20 games for Leinster, starting 8 for a total of 759 minutes. He was 21 years old at the time.

    By the time he'd made his 6 Nations debut, he had played for Leinster 25 times, starting 13 times, for 1,087 mins. Of that - he'd played 7 times in Europe, starting 4 times, for 334 mins.

    This is all very comparable to Jack Crowley of course. When Jack Crowley made his Irish debut, he'd played 19 games for Munster (one less than Sam), started 7 times (1 less than Sam), for 732 mins (27 mins less than Sam). He was 22 years old at the time.

    When he made his 6 Nations debut he'd played 27 times for Munster (2 more than Sam), started 12 times (1 less than Sam) for a total of 1,196 mins (109 mins more than Sam).

    His European experience at the time of his 6 Nations debut was also virtually identical - 7 games (same as Sam), 4 starts (same as Sam) for 360 mins (26 mins more than Sam).

    It is worth noting though that a lot of Crowley's early starts back then weren't always at 10 - i.e. 3 of his 4 European starts were in the 12 shirt at the time of making his 6N debut. Of his 12 total Munster starts at the time of his 6N debut, 5 of them were in the 12 or 15 shirt.

    We didn't, of course, hear the same comments from the same people about his apparent unreadiness.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,229 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I’m a massive Hume fan. Always thought he should have got more chances around 2021/22 when he was playing brilliantly. He makes things happen at 13 and has great footwork for a big guy. But he’s been in great form this season. I’d love to see the two Ulster lads in the centre on Saturday. Stick Stockdale at 15 and attack!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭ersatz


    very surprising that they hadn’t prepared for the aerial contest. I would have thought that would be integral to the week no matter who they’re playing these days.

    And I didn’t realize Edogbo got abuse, was it online?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,055 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    I don't think S.P. was fast tracked too soon. WE needed a top quality replacement for Sexton and based on the U20s Prendergast looked just the very guy. He does have some great skills indeed but he also has some flaws and a physicality shortfall.

    Someone on a Rugby Podcast mentioned the U20s final v. France. I am not sure of the exact facts but it was claimed that of that Irish side, only S.P. is playing pro rugby while on the French side 7 or 8 were regulars in the Top 14. and some were now capped.

    Now I don't have the stats to say if this is accurate but I am sure it isn't far off the mark. I know some of our players are in Academies but why are we so slow to blood our guys? Of course the laws of statistics mean that France with a population of 69,000,000…..almost 10 times that of Ireland and with 10 times the number of fully pro teams are always going to unearth young guys who are physically ready to play at 20 …..and England too.

    Rugby is also a big deal in sport in France but it really isn't in Ireland. I have felt for years that we as a rugby nation miss out on many talented youngsters because that actual pathways upwards are so limited. Some of these blockages come from within the club structures themselves.

    I have told this story before but it is worth repeating. One of my friends and ex rugby coach in senior rugby in Ulster took up coaching his local club sides juniors. He was also employed by the URFU to deliver coaching etc to primary schools. WE would talk rugby at every occasion we met. One day he called me and invited me to see this U16 year old play. I have to say this chap was the best I have ever seen at that age at 10 and I did play at schools level with and against a few guys who became Ulster and Leinster players or Irish internationals. This guy had it all. Size, pace power and skills that were just off the charts. Michael contacted the then head of the Ulster Academy to come and see this guy at training which he did. He arrived, spent 5 minutes on the phone, looked about him and said, "There's nothing to see here" and left. The young player left school and stayed with his local club. He was miles better than any 10 there but the incumbent 10 and 'senior' club member and selector simply wouldn't give him any game time. After about 18 months of this he just packed in rugby. He hadn't gone to a 'rugby' school and didn't have those contacts that help make up the rugby community that often forges lifelong friendships. I often wonder how often this is repeated. There is actually more to the story too.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,060 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Someone on a Rugby Podcast mentioned the U20s final v. France. I am not sure of the exact facts but it was claimed that of that Irish side, only S.P. is playing pro rugby while on the French side 7 or 8 were regulars in the Top 14. and some were now capped.

    Not quite right. Basically all of the French guys are playing pro rugby (Some in ProD2) but 7 or 8 are capped. Something like half the Irish team are in pro rugby but SP is the only one with more than a few caps (but the likes of Gus and Paddy McCarthy were on that team).

    The difference is indeed stark, but having 30+ pro teams helps that. And the French were just crazy good that year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 183 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    The french clubs send young players to ProD2 to play rugby

    Ireland doesn't have that option, if the AIL was pro then you would have similar stats

    Prendergast played in the 2023 U20 tournament. 2024 he was in the 6 nations squad just as a training panalist. Then on the summer tour he went as 3rd choice

    Autumn internationals he came in 3rd choice in the squad and only jumped the other two players when they had poor form.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    Oh its Online abuse of course.

    They prepared for the Aerial 'contest'. Just not enough according to Sexton.

    They exacerbated the folly of the tactic by picking Stockdale and TOB.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,217 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    It is indeed. Why would you look to go to the air so often if you hadn't put plenty of preparation into that very thing?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,780 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    When I said played I meant started. He didn't start any CC game before he was capped for Ireland. He started a couple of URC games the season before, with the exception of an away game in South Africa there were none against tough opponents so basically giving the starters a rest.

    The two games he played in before his Ireland debut were against Edinburgh away and the Lions at home, again not stellar opposition.

    So I went and checked the teams for those two games, a lot of backups with a couple of regular first teamers against Edinburgh and the Lions game six of the eight forwards were not starters but there was five starters, if Osbourne was one then on the wing, in the backs.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    We didn't, of course, hear the same comments from the same people about [Crowley's] apparent unreadiness.

    I mean, it's probably worth pointing out you're making this argument to a Connacht fan…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,780 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    Something else I meant to say.

    If a player is being affected by social media he shouldn't be anywhere near the Irish 23.

    A true elite athlete just concentrates on what they have to do on the field. If they make a mistake they forget about it and intend to make their next involvement good. Nothing else matters. If they get a bollocking from the coach then they work hard to be ready for their next game.

    Anything that happens off the field is left off the field.

    You'll never make it if you are affected by stuff off the field.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 27,316 ✭✭✭✭phog


    I don't think S.P. was fast tracked too soon

    I agree with a lot of your post here but Sam was definitely fast tracked too soon to International rugby, defence wise, he wasn't ready.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,928 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    and crowley had 1 CC start before his debut for ireland.

    the similarities are striking.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,780 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    And it's ridiculous.

    Anyway as I've said for quite a while I'm in Harry Byrnes corner.



  • Administrators Posts: 56,309 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Ireland +12.5 on the spread, I don't fancy us to beat that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 42,780 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    It's impossible to predict after a poor performance against Italy and a horrendous England effort against Scotland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 183 ✭✭JeanRasczak


    Prendergast only got into the team after the two players in front of him at the start of the November series had poor games

    If both Crowley and Frawley had been flying for Ireland he would have stayed at the 3rd option

    Even after the Nov series, Frawley was injured and Crowley was up & down.

    Its claimed all the time by people they want players to grab the jersey, or play the guy in form. When that happens and its not a player from their province, they lose the head and claim he was fast tracked etc etc.

    Prendergast is an excellent example of fans losing it over him getting a start due to poor form from his rivals. Plus these "fans" will also talk about putting in young players as well etc etc



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭Ben Bailey


    Even a 'true elite athlete' who avoids social media spends a large amount of their time in the company of family & friends who see and hear about the vile abuse and casual ill-informed commentary that pervades the modern world (as I type my thoughts into an online forum ffs).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,682 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    Except Crowley was very clearly the understudy which makes a big difference in terms of pressure and expectation.

    Comparing who got their first cap when in any position is pointless because it leaves out all of the context of the situation for the player and team bringing them in.

    The only thing that matters is there was no urgent need to bring in Prendergast last year. It got us nowhere last year and it looks a huge mistake now. Many predicted this last year and have been totally vindicated.



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