DART+ (DART Expansion)

bk · 09-02-2026 02:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124220184#Comment_124220184

Yes S-Bahns typically go further out for a city, up to 50km or so. Just like our DART will. Though then in Asia you definitely can get Metros that also operate out to 50km for the city, so the lines between them can blur in different parts of the world.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124220156#Comment_124220156

I get what you are saying, but I wouldn’t really define DART in that way! S-Bahn like DART is usually defined as hybrid commuter rail - rapid transit (metro) type service.

Im not sure I’d really called it regional, that usually pertains to longer distance services and your definition doesn’t include the important urban rapid transit. Operate DART at a 5 minute frequency in the city center and it definitely becomes an urban rapid transit (Metro) type service.

Per vehicle capacity doesn’t really mean anything, without also defining the frequency and thus the per hour capacity. Plus you have plenty of Metros around the world that would have just as much if not more capacity then DART on a per vehicle basis and which can also go out to 50km.

Metrolink will have twice the capacity of a DART line at 10 minutes frequency. DART at 5 minutes frequency would be almost exactly the same capacity as Metrolink.

Personally I wouldn’t say DART and Metrolink are different positions in the hierarchy, I’d put them on the same level, just working in different ways and serving different areas.

KrisW1001 · 09-02-2026 03:49PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124220373#Comment_124220373

Okay, “Hierarchy” suggested a sense of being better, which isn’t what I was getting at. There are levels of “localness”, I suppose. Trams serve the smallest area, DART the largest.

By “suburban/regional” I meant that DART service extends into destinations that are typically also served by regional trains. Drogheda for Dublin (I expect Kildare will join too eventually), Potsdam/Strausberg/Oranienburg for Berlin, Geltendorf/Mammendorf/Ebersberg for Munich and so on: all are served by direct services as well as all-stops “S-Bahn” trains.

The vehicle capacity is significant, because it gives a strong hint at the type of service: big trains need long stations, which are really expensive to build within the city, so you’ll generally have only one or two trunk lines running through. But you have to compare like for like based on city size - of course bigger cities have metro trains that are bigger than DARTs. The same goes for network lengths: yes, some Shanghai metro lines are 30-40 km, but… Shanghai is a very big city. And Shanghai only has metro services; there is no other longer-distance lower frequency tier to complement the metro.

murphaph · 09-02-2026 03:49PM

If we had common signage design the actual name of the service would be fairly, but not completely irrelevant. What we do absolutely need are route numbers and it's also fine if these are M1, D1, D2, L1, L2 (if we insist on retaining Luas instead of using the universal Tram which is far more useful for visitors, otherwise T1, T2 etc.). I think DART is a poor name because it's Dublin specific and DART like services in Cork or Limerick would have to have another name to gain acceptance. S-Tog or S-Bahn works nationally in their respective countries because they do not refer to a specific city name like DART does. If we really want a standard name for this type of service rather than just calling it metro (which I think is actually fine) then it should be something location agnostic. Maybe we could simply copy Overground or maybe use S-Train (it would be understood by most Germanic speaking Europeans at least) brand but really I think the simplest thing is just to call it metro. The fact that at the outer reaches we may not have 5 minute headways all day is not a problem. The Athens M3 only goes all the way to the airport every half an hour but it's still called metro.

Personally I would like to see everything called metro where there is a very high degree of segregation and reliable journey times. I would include any future highly segregated tram lines in that too.

JohnDoe2025 · 09-02-2026 04:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124220717#Comment_124220717

Technically, Shanghai has hi-speed trains. You can get to Suzhou for example in less than an hour, comparable to getting to Portlaoise.

spillit67 · 09-02-2026 04:21PM

Ask non train heads (who can get very “pedantic” about the “but it’s a different mode”on the naming) and they’ll laud DART or Luas. Most will not draw any distinction on service quality, they are both viewed as high quality urban rail that people are fortunate to live beside. You can get into the weeds of when talking to people where they might lament that they don’t go underground but I have never heard a “normal” person get upset that the two Luas lines were basically watered down versions of what could have been under the various plans over the years.

DART was always the logical brand. The 1980s were grim but the DART was one of the few positives for Dublin generally. Great name and high quality colour scheme and general branding (and the latest trains are just another example of people needlessly putting their personal brand on something). The logic from then was to make the Green Line and Red Line part of this branded network but we didn’t for the reasons outlined above. I’m strongly of the view that it would make things far easier to sell if you take what works with public and say you’ll do it again. “Metro” has always had this almost space age attribute attached to it that of course little old Ireland couldn’t achieve.

In summary your Joe Soap does not care about Irish gauge or standard gauge, they don’t care if one is light right or S Bahn quality, they frankly do not care if the trains are every 3 minutes or every 7 minutes….that’s for the wonks.

The overall branding is just not going to change anyway (the Luas works now, Metro will work too once it’s up and running), the best hope is similar naming conventions. I don’t think the colour thing is that big a deal for colour blind people or whatever, it’s about being shorthand for something. I pray Dublin City Councillors never get a say on it given some of the nonsense naming they’ve been at in recent years.

murphaph · 09-02-2026 06:27PM

You wouldn't get rid of colour schemes for lines, absolutely not, because most people can make great use of the colour as a quick identifier of a line but the numbers are very useful where two lines share a common stretch of line. The Red Line branches could be L1, L2 etc. while retaining the red colour scheme for all trams from both Saggart and Tallaght. As we build more branches, numbering will become much more important. It's also much easier to display L1 in an app than "Red Line in the direction of Saggart", for example.

bk · 09-02-2026 11:34PM

I got to say, I've really enjoyed the last few posters thoughts and points of view, you are all making great points even though coming from different direction.

spilit67 I agree completely that the public doesn't care about all the geeky technical aspects that we discuss here, as long as it comes them to home/work reliably, they don't care.

Luas might "just be" a tram, yet it is the highest satisfaction rate of all types of public transport and lets not forget a mere two tram lines carry more passengers per year then the entire Irish Rail network, that is mad!

I agree that both DART and Luas are great brands, but I also take murphaph's point that they don't mean anything to visiting foreigners, but then do the French care that we don't know what a RER is or the Germans care that we don't know what an S-Bahn is!

Though murphaph's proposal of calling both Metro appeals to me, specially as it would sort out calling the mess with the CACR naming and as a Corkonian I love the idea of Cork soon getting three "metro" lines!

One issue I have with the DART brand is, at least in my head it evokes a good, but pretty infrequent service. I've spent too many Sundays at Clontarf Station waiting 30 minutes for a train to Howth!

But with DART+South going to 5 minutes frequency, then at least that line becomes something different, a more turn up and go Metro type service.

Overall though it isn't really about the name that is used, it is more about the type and quality of service delivered and I think the DART+ network has massive potential to be developed over time.

Crakepottle? · 09-02-2026 11:48PM

Looking for some advice on compulsory purchase re the new Dart line, and hoping that someone may enlighten me. Is it necessary to consult a solicitor or just a chartered surveyor? The cost of the latter will be covered by the railway and the entire matter, of which we were officially made aware five years ago, is extremely cut and dried. We have been recommended a solicitor by an acquaintance but I sense on reading their website that they specialize in in greater areas of land than ours, also that they are quite robust and demanding. We have acquainted ourselves with the general principles of compulsory purchase, we know it is happening and we just need to be justly recompensed. Are we missing in something?

Mod: This is not the forum for seeking legal advice.

Zebra3 · 10-02-2026 01:09AM

This is probably not the best place to be seeking advice on such a delicate issue.

Kermit.de.frog · 10-02-2026 04:57AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124220156#Comment_124220156

The metro goes to Swords. 19kms. Frequency of 90 seconds would be 20,000 passengers per hour for each direction.

Crakepottle? · 10-02-2026 08:49AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124222224#Comment_124222224

Not exactly a delicate issue as several hundred people have received this notice. Its not at all confidential. Many people posting here are more knowledgeable and experienced than me and somebody might be willing to comment.

Mod: This is not the forum for legal advice.

murphaph · 10-02-2026 09:43AM

IANAL and this is not legal advice. If we are talking about the end of a back garden in a row of 50 houses it's going to be very difficult for a solicitor to try to argue that your x m² are worth much more than the median price along that row. You should engage the chartered surveyor of your choice (I assume you can choose who values your land and do not have to choose from an IE panel) and if you are happy with the valuation, perhaps after confirming with neighbours that it's around what they are getting, then you could opt for a stress free life and go with that rather than enter a potentially protracted legal dispute that could end at a time when property prices are lower after a crash. IE might end up getting the land for less than if you settle today (I really don't know if that's possible though, just putting it out there).

If it's a one off dwelling and the land is hard to compare in value then I suppose a skilled solicitor might be able to claim the land is of more value than what the CS says it is, although that's not a given. I would still engage the free CS first though because there is nothing to stop you engaging a solicitor if you are totally unhappy with the outcome.

Remember that legal battles cost nerves too (I know this from experience in two civil cases-it's always at the back of your mind until it's sorted) and last but not least there is a concept of the public good and doing the right thing for your fellow citizens. If your property is along the DART+ line it's likely to benefit fromn increase in value simply by DART+ being delivered and it's your fellow citizens from all over the country that are paying for it. If every one of the 750 affected landowners go the legal route, DART+ will not be delivered at all. No improvement for society and no property valuation increase for you.

Sam Russell · 10-02-2026 12:14PM

Mod: This is not the forum to seek or give legal advice.

spillit67 · 11-02-2026 10:13PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124222059#Comment_124222059

My personal take is anything below 10 mins at peak on rail is viewed as great here.

It’s not quite turn up and go, but you can reasonably plan around it on a commute. The best thing about DART is that 9/10 if you’re getting on somewhere like Blackrock that you know you’ll be in the city centre within 15 mins.

Luas is probably more like 8/10 for timing. If Luas was every 10 mins at peak then people probably wouldn’t like it as much, but it’s very frequent giving people more faith in it.

Both DART and Luas have their weak points but both are high trust systems.

I am interested in how an every 3 mins service that is automated and doesn’t have cars parked on the tracks/bridge strikes in the form of MetroLink does to expectations here. I will say though that from talking to people who live on the existing commuter lines, just getting DART standard trains along with existing DART level frequencies will deliver unbelievable satisfaction. Politicians really just don’t get this I feel, it’s low hanging fruit across so many consistencies.

AngryLips · 12-02-2026 10:42AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124227979#Comment_124227979

Let's not forget that we were promised 3 minute frequencies for Luas but in reality it is a lot less frequent than that.

LXFlyer · 12-02-2026 11:13AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124228914#Comment_124228914

You repeatedly keep posting this claim, and I will continue to remind you that you are wrong.

What we were promised was that trams would run up to a 3 minute frequency at peak times. It certainly was never suggested that that frequency would be extended beyond the peak. And they do run every 3 mins during the morning peak on the Green Line.

The Green Line inbound between Sandyford and O’Connell Street Upper does indeed have a 3 minute frequency leaving Sandyford between 08:00 and 08:57 Monday to Friday.

Outbound they run between Parnell and Sandyford every 3 mins leaving Parnell between 08:41 and 09:11.

KrisW1001 · 12-02-2026 11:46AM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124228994#Comment_124228994

Even the Red Line sees trams running this frequently during the morning and evening. The spacing isn’t as regular as with Green, but there are often three to four trams running in a ten minute window.

Former Former Former · 12-02-2026 12:07PM

It is always worth remembering that IE have not committed to any service levels or train frequencies in any of the Dart+ plans. Putting the infrastructure in place to allow for a train every five minutes is not the same as running a train every five minues.

But with DART+South going to 5 minutes frequency

Is this even possible with the level crossings?

AngryLips · 12-02-2026 12:29PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229167#Comment_124229167

But this is exactly my point. Don't be taken in by best-case-scenario claims. I would argue that Luas demands 3 minute frequencies far more often than it is delivered. It is capable of it, but more often than not is doesn't come close. Most likely post Dart+ service patterns will come as a disappointment to posters here.

Sam Russell · 12-02-2026 12:33PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229167#Comment_124229167

With the current signal system., probably not. If we assume that trains need two minutes or three minutes before a gate, depending on whether the gate is before or after the train passes, then worst case is gates close for five minutes.

With the new signalling, this might reduce to three minutes. With an average closure of two and a half minute closure, it might be all right, but having lunatics trying to beat the red lights, this might not be wise. So some remodelling of the gates will be required.

bk · 12-02-2026 12:39PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229167#Comment_124229167

https://www.dartplus.ie/en-ie/projects/dart-coastal-south

Stage 2 of DART+ Coastal South will seek to deliver the infrastructure enhancements that will enable an increase in train frequency from 6 trains per hour to 12 trains per hour between Dublin Connolly and Bray (Daly) Stations.

12 trains per hour being a 5 minute frequency.

Having said that the D+S plans haven’t been published yet, so we can’t say for certain yet, but it certainly seems to be IR’s intention per their website.

And frankly I’ve always felt that sooner or later this frequency would be necessary on this line.

AngryLips · 12-02-2026 12:52PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229267#Comment_124229267

Infrastructure enhancements that enable such a service is not the same as saying such a service is going to be forthcoming.

KrisW1001 · 12-02-2026 01:00PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229301#Comment_124229301

I’d be confident that almost everyone who posts here understands the difference between service capacity and service provision… there’s no need to give reminders every four or five posts.

bk · 12-02-2026 01:03PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229301#Comment_124229301

You don’t spend the money on such infrastructure enhancements unless you plan to actually use it, at least at peak times!

In Copenhagen they are working towards their S-Trains operating every 90 seconds in the city center section!

Of course it won’t happen over night, but the heavy rail network in Dublin has massive untapped potential.

LXFlyer · 12-02-2026 01:23PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229243#Comment_124229243

You misunderstood what was stated at the time regarding the LUAS Green Line frequencies, you really do need to accept that.

There was never a plan, nor indeed a need, for a 3 min frequency on the Green Line outside of the height of the morning peak.

I will strongly dispute your assertions about frequency levels on the Green Line.

Either side of that 3 minute frequency period mentioned above, services are every 4-5 minutes from 06:30 to 10:00 roughly.

Daytime frequency in that central section is every 6-7 mins.

The evening peak frequency is every 4 mins between Sandyford and Upper O'Connell Street northbound from 16:10 and 18:03 and between Parnell and Sandyford southbound from 17:00 to 19:00. You don't need the 3 mins then because the schools traffic have gone home by then.

It then drops every 6-7 mins until the late evenings when it drops to every 15 mins after 21:45.

I don't think that the power grid would support a higher length of a 3 minute service than that for a start as my understanding is that it is at peak power levels already, and it would also need more funding from government, plus I suspect that you'd be stretching the fleet. I really don't see the demand for yet either.

The mixed service pattern with basically every second southbound tram starting at Parnell and every second northbound tram starting at Sandyford means that there is still capacity for passengers at inner stops.

Service levels graduate up to when demand is needed most - that's the norm for tram routes.

LXFlyer · 12-02-2026 01:26PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229301#Comment_124229301

You build infrastructure to be capable of delivering particular service levels.

What service levels are then delivered are dependent on fleet and driver availability and funding along with demand levels.

LUAS Green Line delivered what was promised - you misunderstood what was promised and that's now apparently someone else's fault!

Consonata · 12-02-2026 03:57PM

The Green Line isn't really capable of consistently hitting 3 min frequencies atp. At morning peak it averages 4min and can go as high as 7 min. The infrastructure isn't really capable of reliably hitting these numbers.

bk · 12-02-2026 04:08PM

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/124229964#Comment_124229964

Yes, worth nothing that the morning peak ranges from 7:00 to 10:00. The bigger gaps are earlier and later in that range, it tends more towards 3mins between 8 and 9. Either way I don't think there is much to argue about over 4min average versus 3min, either way it is a pretty good frequency.

To be honest the frequency and capacity of the Luas is pretty astonishing when you realise it is a street running tram that has to contend with so many junctions and traffic congestion. You would hope that something like DART with a relatively very high level of segregation (I know not complete) should be able to do more, if the demand exists.

goingnowhere · 12-02-2026 05:41PM

DART southside has operated at close to 10 tph in the past, signalling is specified for 12 tph

Can recall the timeable being 0800, 0810, 0815, 0820, -Arklow UP Train passes - 0830, 0835, 0840, 0845, 0855. That went away when the Maynooth and Northern line frequencies increased and the DART moved from 4 to 6 car and then 8 car operation, 6 tph today is still a lot more passenger capacity as the 9 tph we had.

Apparently there are plans to close all the level crossings but these have never been released.

spillit67 · 13-02-2026 11:33AM

Clearly there’ll be service enhancements. Sure they might not get to what it can potentially do, but they won’t spend money on this and not increase services. The demand alone will pay for itself or at least when the sums are ran The DART+ yearly passengers data is incredibly vague. It says something like they’ll double the existing amount of passengers using the lines per annum from around 35 million to 70 million.

The amount of residential construction going on these lines (and even the existing DART) alone is unbelievable, that’s aside from the amount of people who will just start using these lines because of their integrations.

I do not believe they have properly modelled the extra demand that MetroLink integration will have on the existing DART line at Tara Street and also Cross Guns with the two new DART lines. I have never got a handle on what the theoretical capacity of the existing services are at peak (commuter ones will be close to full I’d guess). There is absolutely though a lot of extra capacity on the existing DART (from the southside anyway). Some DARTs fill up on the southside in the morning (mostly when they put the ones out with less carriages) but the evening rush hour is always a lot quieter (no schools). Once people can connect with MetroLink to the DART then a hellova a lot more people will choose to take it over the bus.

My personal guess is the DART+ projects of South West, West and North (excluding South for now) will top 100 million passengers per year and be closer to 3x the number of passengers than 2x. If MetroLink is carrying 50 million from day one, these 3/4 lines will carry 100 million.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

Comments