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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Isn't it fantastic that @bjsc is on here with that kind of stuff and is prepared to spend the time and effort to find it and post it up and take the guesswork out of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    Bloody hell guys - leave it out. I assume that, fundamentally, we all want the same thing. To find out who killed Sophie. We all have different views as to who that is and what happened and that is as it should be because it sparks debate. In a way it doesn't matter who killed Sophie. The important thing, for me at least, is that someone did and that person has never been brought to justice (French trial excepted). So if I can help in any way then I will. And that's really the sum of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,504 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    It was a calm and dry night. I doubt if the entrance gate needed propping with a block to keep it open and you certainly wouldn't require a step to get in or out of a van or car on that laneway. As for tractors or horses who would be riding either of those in the middle of the night ?

    The killer came and left on foot. There's no evidence to suggest he used a vehicle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    If he came on foot why would he need to push the gate right back against the dry stone wall. Surely you would only open it as far as was needed to pass through. Opening it wide potentially risked making noise (gates creak and rattle and sound carries on still nights) and disturbing the occupants of the houses.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I mean there are multiple tire tracks, and it's miles from anywhere. What evidence could there possibly be that they walked, the single boot print perhaps? 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,237 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Night, or should that be morning? Several things would point more to the time of Sophie's death being early morning.

    There were recent tyre tracks in the lane near the gate. To my knowledge there is nothing that would exclude them from being connected to the killing. Is there other evidence that proves the killer came and left on foot?

    Is there any evidence that the killer was male? You say "There is no evidence to suggest he used a vehicle" but is there any evidence the killer was a he?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    Absolutely none. The killer could just as easily have been a female. Particularly if the block wasn't carried from the pumphouse but was in situ all along.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 244 ✭✭Baz Richardson


    An article previously referred to:

    Gardaí trace French speaker with 'scratches on his face' spotted in Kerry pub night after Sophie Toscan Du Plantier murder - Irish Mirror

    "Gardai are also looking at the relationship between Sophie and a male friend whose wife was extremely jealous."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 64 ✭✭irishspiderplant


    I was wondering if the shoe sizes of various people are recorded in the files for example Leo and Sally Bolger?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    They seized shoes from various people, including police officers. Unfortunately, in the vast majority of cases, they didn't record on the exhibit schedule, who the shoes were seized from!!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I think they did take a number of shoe samples (or maybe only sizes) from some of the original suspects, maybe 6-10 people total. Leo Bolger was considered a suspect, and in fact talked about feeling like they were seriously considering him, so I'm sure they must have taken his and Sally's shoe size also. I'm not sure whether the questionnaire they sent around asked about shoe size, but you would think they should have included it there, although with this investigation it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't.

    Bailey was size 11 FWIW



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,250 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    A minor point but if the gate post & gate aren't exactly plumb (I'd say it's very likely in this instance that they would not be plumb), the gate will have a natural tendancy to fall open either in or out

    Edited to add the word "not"

    Post edited by MacDanger on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 64 ✭✭irishspiderplant


    you mean there is no existing record of who the shoes belonged to or we just don’t have access to it?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I've got the exhibit list that was provided to the French Authorities and it mostly just says - pair of shoes or boots and who seized them. There are a few that have names attached but they're predominantly guards.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    An interesting point actually, I don't think it's been discussed before. If the gate is hung plumb it shouldn't swing either way.

    However, this gate is on a slope and if it's hung plumb to clear the higher ground when opened up-slope it would have to be hung higher and there would be a gap under the gate in the closed position. ( is this why there is sheep wire on the bottom of the gate?). If Finbarr off-set the hinges so that the gate still opened up the slope but was level with the ground when closed the natural tendency would be for the gate to slam downhill to the opposite pier, or beyond, if there was nothing to stop it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    The wire at the bottom of the gate extends quite a bit up the rungs, so maybe it was just used to keep animals in, or out also. Sheep/lambs, foxes etc.

    I think there was quite a gap at the bottom when closed, here is a pic I don't remember where from, or when, and it is a different gate of course, but it presumably latches into the same spot. There is easily over 1 foot gap at the bottom, maybe more.

    Also interesting that there was no wire place on this gate, but perhaps that big stone (not the headstone) was used to hold it open. It clearly would have used the same gate post too. Why not use the wire anymore though 🧐.

    Edit: I'm noticing this must be just a week or two after the murder as all the bushes are still short. I'll go look for some later pics.

    Closed gate.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Here's one from presumably years later. No sheep wire, and no block, although there does seem to be some sort of large flat stone right at the edge, not sure if it's holding it or not. The grass looks like it could probably hold the gate most of the time if it's long, although perhaps not in the middle of winter.

    Later gate.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I've been to Sophie’s house. Obviously different gate but the principle is the same. The gate opens inwards on a downward slope so it would probably swing closed of its own accord. I think one possibility is that at some time it was open more often than not and held by the block. But with Sophie's insistence on the gate being closed the stock wire at the bottom was probably an easier solution than moving a 40lb breeze block every time. If you were driving in or out you would need something to stop the gate swinging to before you were through it. And I very much doubt Sophie would be able to move it.

    I think that makes sense. Let me know what you think.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    From the pics above it looked like there is no wire on it now, so what was stopping it from swinging open when you went there do you know?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I didn't go up to the house but I did push the gate open and it swung back closed of its own accord.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Makes perfect sense, the only thing is, the fact the gate is on sloping ground doesn't mean it will swing closed. If it's mounted off-plump it could even swing open against the incline. But that's neither here nor there, as you say in your later post it swung closed for you. Did you happen to notice, when there, if there was anything in place to hold the gate fully open?

    This is from a poster @Bannasidhe who posted on a previous, now closed, thread. She was a passenger in a car visiting Alfie and Shirley in August 1996. She got out to open the gate and moved a piece of a block with her foot to keep it open. It sounds like a bit of a 4inch block.

     https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058184650/murder-at-the-cottage-sky/p233

    I don't know what block was used to kill Sophie, the block I shoved over to hold that gate open was about 3/4 of a single concrete block, if you know what I mean. Just shoved it along, and shoved it back.

    Actually, day of Shirley's party the gate was closed and Sophie wasn't there.

    I think it was a case of Alfie couldn't be bothered closing the gate when he was going out so left it open. Depending on the weather when he got home he might or might not close the gate. Remember Alfie was in and out everyday and not feeling physically great. Sophie was there occasionally.

    I admit I would have done the same as Alfie. If it was raining and I was popping to Scull I'd say f the gate

    A bit of a block that can be moved with the foot is a bit different to trying to move a full 9ins cavity block weighing 50 lbs. It can be rolled but you wouldn't choose it to keep a gate open. Unless of course you wanted to make a point and piss someone off?

    It appears from Bannasidhe's post the gate was left open most of the time. Sophie turns up and any regular visitors are now faced with closed gates. Sophie arrived on Friday evening, maybe before the visitors left and they had to open the gate to leave - no big deal. Saturday found the gate closed again and maybe even Sophie's gate into the lawn or behind her house which they were in the habit of using while Sophie wasn't there -still no big deal. Sunday, the same thing- getting pissed off now. Monday morning opens the gates and goes about their business, but Sophie sees this and goes down and closes the gates. Visitor/s go to leave, and now in a rage yanks the gate into Sophie's lawn open and dislodges the cavity block that it latches onto. Then to make the point goes to use that cavity block to keep the gate in the lane open, knowing full well it would make it very difficult, if not impossible, for Sophie to move. Sophie hears this and comes down to confront them and the block is dropped about a yard short of the end of the gate.

    Unlikely scenario? probably, but it is all I can think of as an alternative reason for the block from the pumphouse to end up by the gate.

    It's unlikely to have been taken before the Sunday night as Sophie and probably others would have seen the damage to the pumphouse and would have mentioned it. As @jesuisjuste mentioned earlier if the block was gone from the pumphouse earlier there was nothing to keep the gate closed and Sophie would have made some arrangements to fix it.

    Post edited by chooseusername on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I think that the first thing to note is that there was more than one block missing from the pumphouse - so at some point someone had already removed at least one for whatever reason. As this was only a half block this may have been the one referred to by the earlier poster. So there must, presumably, have been at least some previous damage to the pumphouse.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Yes, Dr Harbison says one and a half blocks appear to be missing and that could have been the missing half block.

    If the block had been in place on the ground for some time surely the grass underneath would show signs like flattening or discolouration?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    Again a good point. And unfortunately the photographs of the scene don't show enough of the surrounding area to give a clearer picture. There are some questions I just can't answer. Maybe there are no answers. As I have always said anything is possible. My personal view is that, for whatever reason, the block was already in situ. But my only aim is to try and find who committed this horrendous crime and anything that provokes debate can only be a good thing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    That's a really good point about the discolouration. I took a look at KoudeKaas, and there doesn't appear to be a significant difference in discolouration where the block may have lain vs the surrounding, although most of the grass all over the area has a yellowish tint.

    • If the block wasn't in the pump house it would have had to have lain somewhere on the ground, and that place was not the final resting place, because it is lying on top of something that was placed during the attack (dressing gown). There should be a discoloured patch somewhere unless the block was recently removed (within a couple of days).
    • In addition in one of the photos they actually show the rock raised vertically up, and there is not much of the ground visible, but of what you can see there doesn't appear to be a significant discolouration under it either. Not sure whether we can take anything from that but it certainly could be the case that neither were there for too long, perhaps though a few days is still reasonable.
    • Harbison specifically mentioned the area under the stone being depressed, which could indicate it was there for a while, but he associated it with being bashed into the ground during the attack. Since he considered it a weapon, perhaps he thought it had been brought there also.
    • For the half block missing from the pump-house, I posted a while back but that was missing a long time before, as can be seen in Sophie's home video. I think someone mentioned that the gap could have been there to enable to access/reach in on occasion without dismantling everything. It may never have been in place to begin with.
    • The pump house roof was lifted up also to remove the block, so it absolutely had recently been moved, but perhaps not during course of the attack/escalation.
    • After the murder it seems they took apart the top layer of the pump house and removed most of the blocks from that layer. The later roof was much more ramshackle for some reason, probably because the rest of the users didn't care so much about aesthetics.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I don't think its all that unlikely. Especially when compared to many of the other scenarios/ theories promoted.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,908 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    In the photo with the rock raised, the underside of the rock appears to be dry. If it had been lying flat on wet ground it would surely be wet. Was it taken from the dry stone wall across the lane to use as a weapon, but discarded in favour of the block?.

    "Beside the deceased's left shoulder and head was a flat slate like stone which was heavily blood stained and might have been used as a weapon."

    ". I was able to look at the ground when the body had been moved to note that there was a slight depression with blood on it where the head had lain. This indicated to me that the body bad been in that position when the blows were struck"

    The depression in the ground was where the head had lain, not the rock. There are no photos to show it but the police drawing appears to show the left side of the head resting against the rock or even slightly on top of it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,237 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    How would the bottom of the rock be wet if it was lying on the ground?

    It was a clear night so there would probably have been frost or dew overnight which would have made the ground and exposed faces of the block damp/wet.

    If one face of the block was dry and the others wet it would suggest that face of the block was on the ground overnight and moved early in the morning.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,395 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    You know I had a slightly different interpretation of how things may have occurred which is why I wrote it that way, but in re-reading I understand how I may be incorrect. I'll just throw out there what I was thinking though as it may have been part of the assault. In general I think people would agree that perhaps the above scenario that @bjsc had mentioned:

    The rock was to hand and used as a weapon to bash Sophie. In doing so Sophie's head was pushed up against the block and abraised on that side of her head.

    I had also considered the following, and I'll update my potential interpretation from above to reflect this:

    The rock was on the ground and Sophie's head was bashed against the rock from above, it being used as a hard surface. So perhaps her torso lifted and whacked down onto it, or punched with it behind her head, and ultimately stomped with the aforementioned Doc marten boots.

    In this reading I was thinking maybe she was pushed/punched and fell and her head hit onto the rock before being further attacked. This is often what happens in fights outside a bar for example when someone loses the rag.

    What scenario could have caused this. Well perhaps she went down to the open gate and pushed it out so it swung closed, then was pushed/punched back and away and fell on the rock. Then further attacked. Then the perpetrator went back and pulled open the gate with the blood still all over their hands. Then they went up through the field, checked the house, came back to their vehicle and left.



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