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Cold Case Review of Sophie Tuscan du Plantier murder to proceed

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I'm not disagreeing with you at all, I simply asked a question. I don't have access to all the photos and files you have and I can't tell from the Koude Kaas photos where on the ground you believe the block was before the attack.

    If you could mark it on this police sketch and repost it, it would make a lot more sense.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    "4. The deceased's injuries were largely those caused by one or more blunt objects. One of these was fairly light in view of the minor injuries in such places as the arms. Another at least was heavy in view of the depressed fractures of the skull and fractured skull base, which normally requires considerable force.

    5. The cavity block and the fairly large stone which I saw beside the body could each have been used to cause the skull injuries. They were fairly consistent superficial abrasions of parallel nature. The most likely cause of these is some surface with an irregular or regular rough edge sliding along the skin giving the effect of parallel lines. I did suggest, though I think it less possible, that they could have been caused by impact from footwear with linear markings such as a Doc Marten boot.

    6.I have been asked by Gardai about the stone as opposed to the concrete block, being the weapon causing the crushed head injuries. My recollection of examining it at the scene, and I have not seen it since, is that it had smooth edges and was therefore was less likely to give rise to the parallel linear markings on the skin of the head, arms and neck."

    ………………….

    J. F.A.Harbison,

    F.R.C.Path.,D.M.J.(Path.),

    State Pathologist,

    24th March 1997.

    (Signed John Harbison)

    "The cavity block and the stone could have been used" so it could be either or both.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 977 ✭✭✭flanna01


    I suspect this was a rage killing, a moment of complete madness.

    Given the weapon of choice was a concrete block, and the body was left where it was (no attempt to conceal) it suggests that the killing was unplanned and unintentional.

    The gate was fully drawn back with evidence of recent tyre marks at the scene, this would suggest a vehicle had entered the site. Given Sophie's penchant to insisting the gate be closed at all times, this was likely the flash point of the confrontation

    So who would be opening the gate to drive into the site? One would suspect a visitor or a farm hand (especially given the time line - midnight to early morning).

    If it was a visitor or farm hand, then they were likely known to Sophie. The rage would suggest past ill feelings towards her, or a past history of differing opinion that festered on and off for a long time.

    In my opinion, it was a spur of the moment assault, the assailant lashed out in a split second of madness, there was no pre-meditated intention to kill.

    A disturbed intruder would just high tail down the road as fast as he can, or may assault a person to make a speedy escape if the person was standing in the way, but the sheer brutality of the murder kinda rules that scenario out.

    The killer came to visit Sophie or Alfie intentionally, or was leaving Alfie's residence, and that would involve a small pool of local people, and it is there where the killer can be found.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I don't want to post the photo on here, but based on the photo on Koudekaas that has the blue garment and block and stone in view, with the surrounding of blood, my interpretation of the block location is approx like this, probably slightly less rotated, however I'll let @bjsc post if she sees differently.

    BLOCK.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    My reading of this within the context is that Harbison is proposing that there are two primary scenarios:

    1. The stone provides the majority of the blunt force to the head, and the block provides the fractures to the skull
    2. The stone provides the majority of the blunt force to the head, and the Doc marten boot stomp provides the fractures

    There is also another lighter blunt weapon he refers to. I'm not sure if he is referring to the possibility of fists here, because surely she was struck by punches also, but that can really be ignored for the fractures. His wording also leaves open that the block could have provided all of the traumas, but I don't think this is practical given it's weight, and is likely why he didn't feel the need to specify. Harbison explicity said he didn't think the stone alone caused the traumas, because of the linear abrasions (as the stone has no linear feature, unlike the block, or doc marten). However @bjsc believes another sceanrio could explain it all

    3. When the block is orientated closer to her head (as the blood pattern shows), then her head being against the block, while being hit with the stone would cause both the traumas/fractures, and the abrasions.

    Scenario 2 & 3 doesn't require the block being lifted up per se, just being in proximity. It also means that it could have been there without having been brought specifically from the pump-house for the purpose. It would imply it was moved aside after the attack, but still not necessarily have had to be lifted, just pushed aside.

    If I'm interpreting anything wrong here bjsc, please feel free to correct.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    This, in my opinion, is the most plausible scenario. ( Occam's razor) In that it fits the known facts and requires the fewest leaps of faith, assumptions and unlikely explanations to support it. Unlike most other theories, it does seem to represent a square peg in a square hole.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭csirl


    I agree with this, but would add two things.

    1. The breakfast food suggests it happened later than the Gardai say - at or just before dawn.

    2. It isnt necessarily someone who knew her. It could be someone up to no good e.g. opportunistic burgler on run up to christmas - who maybe wasnt planning on killing, but didnt figure on an altercation with STDP. People being injured/killed in aggrevated burgalries in rural locations wasnt uncommon during that era.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,536 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Personally I don't really subscribe to the opportunistic burglar theory - it was too vicious for a passing encounter. If she happened upon a random burglar then a decent punch would probably suffice. This was extreme and filled with rage and hatred but there appears to be no other crime liked to the murder - no form of sexual assault, no burglary, etc. I think it much less likely that a stranger would carry out an attack of this nature.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,238 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    If the shoe print was related to the murder, a size 4 to 7 would be very small for a man's foot. Together with the possibility that the concrete block might not have been the murder weapon, it does raise the possibility that the murder was around breakfast time and the murderer was possibly a woman. It does make the bee in their bonnet the gardaí had to pin the murder on Bailey all the more bizarre.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭csirl


    It does seem that this is a murder where there was a good bit of evidence to work with in the early days that would normally be a good start to the imvestigation i.e.

    Doc martin boot of a particular size.

    Tyre tracks - expert analysis would likely determine type/size and what vehicles would use this type of tyre.

    Time of murder - breakfast?

    Male blood sample found by the French.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    It's fairly small but there were probably plenty of men in the area who were 5ft 8/9 or shorter, as well of course as the women. It would have ruled out Bailey, and perhaps a handful of other tall men, and that's probably why it was ultimately ignored.

    I think for the gardai, it was fairly common at the time to just pick who you thought may have done it, and then bully your way to a conviction. When doing so it's easy to just dismiss things that don't fit, boot tracks, tyre tracks, food in the stomach etc. The most telling is that they went ahead with the arrest before the DNA results came back.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    It's very likely that they could have pinned each of these to one person if they'd bothered to investigate. Look at the shoe sizes, did anyone have doc martins, what car did they drive, where did they say they were at breakfast time, compare the DNA. Literally each of those pieces of information could still be found out today if they bothered to revisit the questionnaires and got a tape measure out. Just this batch of info alone could still convict someone today imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭Deregos.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Wait is this for real, we actually know who Marie Farrell was with on the night, and he's actually fairly well known in his own regard? Has he ever been interviewed? This is such a strange case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,095 ✭✭✭Gussie Scrotch


    I believe he denied being wit her/was able to prove he wasn't.

    I think she then change her story and claimed it was a "john Reilly", who couldn't be located.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Imagine getting dragged into this mess of a case by Marie Farrell of all people, like what the hell. The day Fiona called the guards this case turned from a clown show to a complete f*cking circus, and we're still stuck in the tent waiting for the encore.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    When MF was identified as the anonymous caller who had seen a man at Kealfadda Bridge in the early hours of 23rd December she dropped various clues as to the identity of the man she was with but wouldn't name him. She said he was an old boyfriend from when she lived in Longford, that he drove an Opel car and that he was into Tae Kwan Do. Based on this the police identified Jan Bartels who lived in Longford, drove an Opel and had had a relationship with MF. When he was contacted he denied being anywhere near Cork although he agreed he drove an Opel and new MF. He was alibied by his wife. Guards made enquiries in the martial arts community but no one knew of him. However we now have evidence of MF asking a senior Guard to get his officers to leave her "boyfriend" in Longford alone as he was never going to admit that he was with her that night. It also transpires that Jan Bartels, far from being unknown, is a big wheel in the Tae Kwan Do community.

    None of this proves that he was the mystery man but it certainly raises more than a few questions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    I don't disagree with this at all.

    It is also possible that at some point in the attack she may have tripped, fallen or been pushed and that this had caused her to hit her head on the breeze block, accounting for at least some of the injuries.

    I have sent the French post mortem report to a colleague who is an eminent forensic pathologist in the French speaking part of Canada. He is going to have it translated for me as, whilst my French is adequate, I think a proper understanding of all the terms used in the report would be helpful.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    The breeze block is lying almost at right angles to Sophie's left hip, between her body and the dry stone wall. It is on its side (as opposed to upright) and the two vents which run through it are horizontal to the ground. There is a roughly rectangular area of grass, which is free of blood, parallel to Sophie's left arm. In some of the photo's, after Sophie's body has been has been removed you can clearly see the blood free area of grass which has been protected by Sophie' body then a narrow line of blood stained grass and then a clear area surrounded by heavily blood stained grass with the breeze block at its lower edge. To me it looks as though the block has been in situ at the start of the attack and had then been pushed or fallen over during the struggle ending up on the edge of Sophie's dressing gown. The photos are freely available on the Koud Kass blog but I don't indeed posting them here



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    To technical for me but I have tried to give a better description in my post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,000 ✭✭✭Day Lewin


    @bjsc, you are a legend. Thanks for sharing your expertise!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Just going back to your thoughts here, as I've been trying myself to figure out the reason for the blocks placement, if any.

    A thought that comes to mind, might be way off with this but, is it possible that it was used as a sort of mounting aid/step, either to get into/out of a tractor/van, or maybe even onto a horse. I don't know if they ever rode the horses there, or just used them to carry stuff or plough or whatever. The location just after the end of the gate might have been a frequent mounting/dismounting location, or getting in and out of a tractor/van etc.

    Anyway, just a thought. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just left there with no purpose either, similar to the other scattered rocks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc


    You make a very good point and one I hadn't fully considered before. We don't know when the stock fencing was put on the bottom of the gate so it's possible that the block was originally used to hold the gate and when it became redundant it was just moved out of the way. I am still very much of the view that it was there during the entirety of the attack but may not have been being used to hold the gate. Incidentally there is a very similar looking block (although the pictures aren't great) propped against the opposite gate post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    I know Sophie recently had the gate to her field installed, but do we know when the outer gate was installed? Perhaps @chooseusername you may know, it was probably mentioned before somewhere along this thread.

    Just revisiting the home movie of Sophie walking down the lane towards the exit, and there was no outer gate at that point in time either (not the lack of metal gate post which came later, the wood is part of the fence). I believe this was within the previous couple of years.

    Sophie I imagine was the onus to install all gates in the area as the rest of the owners/users didn't seem bothered about it. I can imagine they also didn't bother to close them when she wasn't around for 50 or so weeks of the year.

    No outer gate.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 488 ✭✭bjsc




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Yes, I think the gate is just opened back against the wall and the camera is further down the lane at the bend. The pier opposite and the postbox are visible.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭jesuisjuste


    Yeh looking at it again, maybe it is just obscured behind the fence post. Perhaps that is the little sign there on the right that Finbar is talking about. What are the chances.



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