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Dublin - Metrolink (Swords to Charlemont only)

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,154 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    that’s far beyond my knowledge but I do work in facility maintenance and there is a lot of unseen stuff goes on. As above it’s not that everything needs to be looked at monthly but the shear length of the line would require little and often.
    I don’t think 24 hours would be an issue if needed over weekends or even Christmas period but they will certainly have regular planned maintenance that would be ongoing.
    in my job which is a fairly simple building we have quarterly fire alarm maintenance and weekly bell tests.
    annual UPS maintenance, annual generator maintenance, monthly generator off load runs, quarterly generator on load runs. We have quarterly maintenance on air conditioning systems, AHUs & fans. Plus loads more on suppression systems, leak detection, electrical testing of various types along with thermal imaging it’s never ending and just cycles through constantly



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,259 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    I also suspect we are overestimating the amount of maintenance ml will need once it's bedded in. There are few points to maintain. Tracks and ohle typically do not require regular maintenance. The lineside electronics should be very robust and effectively maintenance free solid state stuff. Apart from a few points virtually all the moving parts in the system are on board the trains. Maintenance on platform doors could surely be done by closing one track if access to the train side of the doors are required for routine maintenance (bad design if that's the case really and I doubt it is). Maintenance of escalators etc. within stations can happen without any closures. I don't believe a brand new automatic railway with optimal acceleration and braking behaviour would need anywhere near the maintenance of a driver operated 150 year old system like the London Underground.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 844 ✭✭✭p15574


    The new 24-hour BusConnects bus routes would link up with it.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,712 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell




  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,042 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They shut down. 24/7 running is pretty rare. As has been mentioned here. CPH manages it as they have two tunnels and run a limited service using only one tunnel for a period.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,103 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    Preventive maintenance would be done, tracks walked, lines checked , routine inspections.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Quite a few North American flights arrive in early, 4.30 wouldn’t be unusual with the tail winds coming back that way. Of course there’s the time to get through immigration etc. so should be okay but I think 5 should be the minimum. There’s also a lot of early morning flights from Dublin from 6 to 7 and starting service at 5.30 doesn’t cut it imo.

    There should be a bus service that mimics the line as far as possible when it’s not operating imo.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    Of course it’s required frequently. If you think of “the Metro” as a single object, it seems odd to suggest that it needs such frequent inspection and maintenance, but it is not a monolith: it’s a number of interdependent systems, each of which needs to be monitored and taken care of, and there’s only so much that can be done in parallel.

    The track isn’t even one thing from a maintenance perspective: inspection and maintenance work on track is done in sections, so while any given run of track might only need to be inspected once every month, if the whole system is divided into thirty work areas (i.e., about 1km of track for each direction), then that means there’s a nightly inspection somewhere on the line. And it’s not just track: in between times, there’s electrical systems, signalling, train control, platform doors, ventilation, etc. etc.

    This is a big system, there will always be something that needs looking at. Two hours a night, five nights a week won’t be wasted time, especially if it catches a serious problem early. If you sweat any machine and skip maintenance you risk complete failure and long downtimes. But doing this regular maintenance would allow the system to be confidently extended to all-day operation for those brief periods when this is actually needed.

    New York is the only non-automated system that runs 24 hours, but it was built with long three- and four- track sections to facilitate this. NY was the world’s first underground railway, but no subsequent system followed its example - why? It wasn’t worth the extra cost.

    Copenhagen is an outlier, and the 24-hour running is more of side-effect of the design allowing in-service daytime maintenance in the event of a failure than something that fulfilled an actual need. As with New York, it’s telling that no system built after Copenhagen adopted this design. Bigger cities than Copenhagen seem to get on fine with no need for 24-hour metros: Milan M5 is also a fully automated line, and it operates 18 and a half hours a day (0530-0000). Moving up to megacities, Paris is 05:30 to 01:40 on weekends, closing at 00:40 during the week, Tokyo runs night-buses rather than extending the operating hours of its metro lines, and Hong Kong MTR lines shut around 0100 and re-open at 0600.

    If Tokyo cannot produce enough passengers in the middle of the night to make a metro line viable, then there’s no hope that Dublin can.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Does the London Dockland LR require this level of shutdowns? Or the Paris Metro automated lines?

    Neither operate 24/7, not even at weekends! DLR 5am to midnight, 7 nights a week. Paris, 5:30 to 1:15am weekdays, 2:15am weekends, including automated lines.

    Though it isn’t really about it being automated or not, it is more to do with maintenance needing to be done. NY subway runs 24/7 while being driver operated, but it has big triple and quad tracked tunnels and basically swaps tunnels overnight.

    If Tokyo cannot produce enough passengers in the middle of the night to make a metro line viable, then there’s no hope that Dublin can.

    While I agree with what you say, I don’t think it is lack of passengers that stops Tokyo Metro operating overnight! If the Tokyo Metro had the same design as NY or Copenhagen, I’ve no doubt they would happily operate 24/7. It is more of a case of is your system designed in such a way that allows maintenance to be carried out while still operating or not?

    Looking at the Paris and London examples I do hope they might consider later finish times or even 24/7 at the weekends at least. Would help take the pressure off the bus service at the busiest times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,296 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    I think it’s a mixture of lack of demand and also cost. Tokyo’s urban rail has quite short opening hours: right now, Japan Rail urban services and Tokyo Metro open 20 hours a day from 05:00 to 01:00 (or 05:00 to 25:00, as the Japanese would say) while the Toei Subway runs 19 hours a day, from 05:00 to midnight. It would not be impossible for these lines to open for another hour or so per day, but neither operator does this outside of the New Year holiday period, when a sort-of 24 hour service is offered. I really don’t think this is entirely a technical limitation: there has been decades worth of continuous capacity improvement work across Tokyo, including new lines, but not once has there been anything proposed that would allow 24 hour operation. Even now, automation projects are concentrating on reducing headway during the morning and evening peaks, not extending the opening hours of the system.

    My feeling is that 24 hour operation greatly increases the capital costs of the system, and the relatively small added ridership just doesn’t pay back those costs: when there’s very little traffic, as there is in the small hours of the night, road transport is more competitive than urban rail, simply because it can offer direct, door-to-door travel at very close to the same average speed; the cost-benefit analysis for overnight metro running can’t even count on savings from removal of road congestion, as no roads are operating anywhere close to capacity at these times.

    It would be interesting to see the ridership figures for Copenhagen over the 0100 to 0400 period, and compare these to the number of people taking the city’s night bus network. My own feeling is that the design of Copenhagen’s metro was a decision to add resilience for daytime failures, and the ability to run 24/7 was just a side effect.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,830 ✭✭✭p_haugh


    You could have something like the E2 extended to the airport overnight, or even run a night-time only E3 from Cherrywood→Airport that skips the detour through Ballymun (it wouldn't cover the full green line alignment, mind you).



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Of course you are absolutely correct that there is a cost element too it. Like if the Tokyo Metro wasn't originally designed to operate 24/7 and now the only way to add that ability would be too build extra tunnels, then obviously the overnight usage wouldn't be enough to justify such expenditure, at least not on it's own (though extra daytime capacity might push it over).

    NY Subway runs 24/7 because it is quad tracked, but you are correct they went for the extra cost to allow for extra daytime capacity (the ability to run both local and express services) and the 24/7 is a nice side effect.

    I think we actually agree, the point I think I'm trying to make is that it is largely an up front design decision that would be difficult to later change once made, that is all really.

    For Copenhagen there was a big extra cost for them to allow those cross over points, as it required them mining between the tunnel bores to create those cross overs. Another cost saving for us as cross overs can happen in the single bore tunnel without extra mining work. So of course all trade offs.

    The interesting design decision we made is around safety and evacuation. Dual bore tunnels are so common amongst metros as if there is a fire or something like that in one tunnel, there are normally passenger cross over points where passengers can go over to the other tunnel to escape. For our city center tunnel, we have decided that people will just use the same tunnel to escape. This is possible because of the relatively short distances between stations and evacuation stairs. The airport tunnel however has longer distances between stations, so it will have a separate escape tunnel.

    I'll leave it there now, there is probably a bigger conversation to be had about night time services across the city, but would probably be best for it's own thread.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,480 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    first Luas tram is 5.00 isn’t it. I got it recently at the Red Cow. Surprisingly busy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,312 ✭✭✭mackerski


    NY was the world’s first underground railway

    Nope. London was.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,437 ✭✭✭Deedsie


    And what was Dún Laoghaire? Worlds first commuter line?



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 20,712 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    If the metro manages to run from 5.00 to 01.00 that will be fantastic for the first year. Then it can be adjusted according to demand and passenger numbers. The pattern for maintenance would by then be worked out.

    So not worth worrying about just yet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 298 ✭✭Bsharp


    D&B M401 and M402 tenders issued



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27 Thomas.Telford


    7.9 billion excluding VAT



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    For those wondering what M401 and M402 are:

    M400 Design and Build Civils Works Packages ​

    The two M400 (M401 and M402) contracts will provide design and delivery of metro tunnels, stations and structures, track, shafts, river and road crossings, surface and other civil works. The scope of each of the M400 Main Civils Infrastructure Contracts comprises:​

    Southern Section M401 – Charlemont to Northwood: ​

    • Bored tunnels and portals, evacuation / intervention shafts. ​
    • Below ground station excavations at Charlemont, St Stephen’s Green, Tara, O’Connell, Mater, Glasnevin, Griffith Park, Collins Avenue, Ballymun, Northwood up to 35 m deep (shell and core structures). ​

    Northern Section M402 - Northwood to Estuary: ​

    • M50 viaduct, surface route (retained cut, cut and cover) and at-grade sections. ​
    • Estuary Station Park and Ride Facility (bulk earthworks and site preparation). ​
    • Preparation of the Dardistown Depot site and access road. ​
    • Bored tunnels and portals, evacuation / intervention shafts. ​
    • Stations and associated logistics including Dardistown, Dublin Airport, Fosterstown, Swords Central, Seatown and Estuary.​


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭spillit67


    And Boston was the first in the U.S.

    Good book here on it.

    https://www.washingtonindependentreviewofbooks.com/bookreview/the-race-underground-boston-new-york-and-the-incredible-rivalry-that-built



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,797 ✭✭✭spillit67


    Well one other thing is the potential to use the Green Line ultimately as a substitute. I don’t want to raise the Green Line to the airport potential again though…we’ve just got our ML tender issued!



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    So 8 billion before a section of track is laid, or a train is bought. Hard to know without the final contract price how much it'll be in total.

    An interesting part of the announcement:

    Applicants may apply for one or both lots but can only be awarded one contract. Three applicants will be shortlisted for each lot if sufficient parties are interested. TII reserves the right to shortlist the fourth highest-ranked applicant for one or both contracts.  

    Seems they don't want one contractor to have both lots. Does beg the question of if they're actually going to stick to the one TBM though. Can't imagine that any contractor will be happy to have to wait until the other is finished with it before starting tunneling.



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,313 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    Another duplicate post 😓



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    The first phases of the MetroLink project have gone to tender today at a maximum value of just under €8 billion excluding VAT, but Transport Infrastructure Ireland says it expects the bids for the project to be considerably less than this.

    Note this is the max value of the tenders, they are expecting it to come it much less then that.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2026/0204/1556766-metrolink-tender/

    Also there was always going to be two TBM’s, one TBM per tunnel section.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    The cost of the trains themselves are spread out over their useful life and offset with the fares collected by same. The reduced congestion and better quality of life for everyone from Dublin City to North County Dublin far out weighs the cost of building this. Our capital city has ground to a halt already, costing the economy hundreds of millions each year.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Van.Bosch


    this is a huge step though isn’t it? Or am I being optimistic?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,691 ✭✭✭Tileman


    You’r right it is great news.
    although we had this step completed and were actually at the final selection process when it was pulled the last time.
    however let’s be positive. I didn’t think we would be here on the 22nd of December last.

    Seems to be good momentum now.

    Post edited by Tileman on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,260 ✭✭✭✭tom1ie


    How long will the tender process take before the two contractors for M401 and M402 are selected?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 298 ✭✭Bsharp


    M401 August 2027, M402 November 2027 are the intended dates for contract award, so they'd be the earliest.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,177 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    That means well in to 2028 for construction presumably because of the scaling up time before big works can start.

    Sweeney says here end of 2027 though for major construction before the end of this interview

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2026/0123/1554726-ranelagh-metrolink/

    Perhaps the August 2027 was pre JR resolution?



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