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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,647 ✭✭✭FtD v2


    Yeah, but the last two RWC winning sides had an average age of 26.9 (2011) and 28.5 (2015) respectively, and as @Clegg highlighted there are multiple old guys in there including 4 guys 30+ in the 2015 Final.

    For the backs on the side that lost the 2023 Final the average age was 28.7. Youngest player (and only one under 26) was Will Jordan (25 yrs 8 mths).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭lawrencesummers


    while the age is one factor, and an important one the amount of caps needs to be considered far more.

    It’s not just caps, because all caps are not equal. The length of time on the pitch and the standard of opposition is key.

    Behlam and Conan have about the same number of caps but there is a wealth of difference in their playing experience at this level



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    Was listening to the BBC NI Ireland Rugby Social podcast – was recorded live on Wednesday night at Armagh RFC. Conor Murray was very interesting on how Andy Farrell will put pressure on James Lowe – says he’s seen Farrell do it before when Lowe wasn’t performing. Farrell knows what different players will respond to, and Murray says he’ll be harsh and critical of Lowe – because he knows that’s what will make Lowe respond.

    Humphreys has been looking at how to ensure kids coming out of schools playing front row are technically good scrummagers.

    The way Best and then Murray wax lyrical about Hugo Keenan is also something to behold – Murray talks about him as “half coach, half player” and a guy that make video presentations during game week to the other back three players.

    Then listening to Cian Tracey on the Indo Sport podcast. He’s in Portugal at the Ireland camp and says Jack Conan has been raving to him about Bryn Ward.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 5,796 ✭✭✭ionadnapóca


    All 21: Brian Gleeson , Bryn Ward , Sean Edogbo

    And an Irish Back Row The making.

    Noticeable how Gleeson didnt make much impact in the carry v Dragons



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Which of the younger props could have done the job Healy did? Weren't nearly all of them either injured or in nappies the last couple of years?



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  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 36,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    He's gone from Rob Heffernan to Rob Henderson. Do you mean Rob Herring?



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,923 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    of course i do, but ill never miss a chance to immortalise irelands greatest ever center !!!

    😉

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    Jack Boyle certainly could have, I’m all for keeping older players if they are still producing the goods but realistically Healy offered very little other than adding experience.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,923 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Jack boyle had only 750 minutes of pro rugby before he made his Ireland debut. That's less than 10 full pro games. His first two Ireland caps were in the 6 nations. There very few players get to make their debuts during that competition.

    When boyle was ready, he was selected, ahead of Healy (who was not injured)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Yeah it's the wingers that NZ tend to discard at about 27 or 28. If they don't transition to midfield they're pretty much told to head north and collect their pension.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,223 ✭✭✭TRC10




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    I get that, but with what he had shown up to this point he was better than Healy and should have been picked ahead of him.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,408 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Our wingers are rarely the athletic freaks you get in NZ. Stockdale is about the only one in the last few years (at least) who has size, pace and attacking ability and he made his debut around 21.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,295 ✭✭✭Paul Smeenus


    In fairness, Zac Ward has exactly that, but he spent years playing 7s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Of the back three in the current 6N squad, Keenan, Osborne, Baloucoune and Stockdale all made their debut aged 24 or younger. If Hansen was fit, he’d be in the same bracket.

    Only Lowe (project player) and TOB (ravaged by injury) were older than 24 making their debuts.

    If anyone is interested in facts like.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,923 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Hummm

    With what he had shown in 10 games that made him debut in the six nations ahead of Healy??

    Maybe farrell saw that and, you know, capped him?

    Or differently, capped Paddy mac after 270 minutes, debuting against new Zealand, cos farrell never gives youth a chance??

    Your argument is wet paper.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    1. That he could hold up a scrum
    2. Gets through more work around the park

    That would be my main 2 standouts, well firstly it wasn’t Farrell it was Esterby. And no, it’s was just conservatism.

    I get we love to romanticise about these older players but removing all that and being objective, there was precisely 0 benefit to backing Healy over Boyle.


    It’s not wet paper though, Healy was well passed in in 2023 and should have been moved on then. While I’m a big fan of Farrell and his selections, unfortunately, he isn’t immune to the Irish curse of hanging on to players a year too late and unfortunately that’s what happened with Healy & POM, both should have been moved on after the SA tour.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 934 ✭✭✭johnh6767


    Boyle is a young man with plenty of time at the beginning of the journey. Backing young players is great of course but it’s not without risk and backing them when they’re not physically or mentally developed to the test level can be counterproductive



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    All completely valid. If it was Healy from 2022-2023 I would probably have stuck with Healy as, especially in that game up in Murrayfield, he showed what he can offer. However since the 2023 RWC and especially in 2025 he dropped off significantly to the point where I feel Boyle had overtaken him, not by a significant amount but enough to get ahead of him in the 23.


    Not just in terms of playing ability but also with an eye to the RWC 3 caps were wasted on a player who was never going to make 2027 which for me is poor planning. I can understand them going to Murray and to some extent POM as while they wouldn’t make 2027, they still have something to offer the side, Healy unfortunately does not except for the fact he can cover hooker in a match day 23.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,923 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    "does not" ??

    Healy retired last season.

    Boyle and Paddy mc are perfect examples of farrell trusting youth and playing players WHEN THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH.

    This argument is mental. Everyone could see that Healy was at the end of his career. However up to the 6 nations last year no loose head was performing well enough to oust Healy. When boyle showed he was good enough, he did oust Healy.

    Healy who only played 30 minutes of the 2025 6 nations AND scored a try in the process.

    Jack boyle played 26 minutes.

    So your argument is that those 30 minutes that Healy got had somehow stunted the career of jack boyle. Absolutely mental argument.

    You say that you think boyle was doing enough in 2025 to take that 17 jersey... Which is exactly what happened.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,709 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I think the argument would be more the fact that they didn't trust healy for more than a few minutes per game. So they left Porter on for over 70 minutes. Turns out they had a viable option in Boyle who they could have played for the more normal 20 or 25 minutes per game.

    Nobody wants to play Porter for 75 minutes per game. That only happened through perceived lack of options. But it turns out Boyle was a viable option who was blocked by Healy, who they didn't really trust

    That's the argument I would make.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,042 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    They wouldn't have though, because Porter still would have been much better doing a 70 min stint than putting on Boyle.

    There is a reason Boyle was seemingly passed out by McCarthy so quickly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 326 ✭✭Rayray98


    The post was referring to last season.

    As I’ve already pointed out, Boyle was performing better. More like, when Leinster got knocked out of the CC and Ireland had their chances of the 6N ended was Boyle backed over him.


    He scored that try in the last play of the game when Ireland were 22 points down.


    I never said backing Healy “stunted his development”.



  • Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 44,923 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Boyle wasnt blocked by Healy.

    Boyle overtook Healy.

    Soon after Paddy mc overtook boyle.

    Did boyle block Paddy mc?

    Post edited by sydthebeat on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,709 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    I doubt it. It's very unusual to plan for a prop to play over 70 mins per game. It's not something coaches do by choice. It made sense for Healy because he was too old to do much around the pitch except set piece. Boyle could move around the pitch and could do the job in the set piece.

    I think it they played Boyle earlier, they would have realised he was able to do the normal sub role and play 20 minutes rather than 5 minutes at the end.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,042 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Porter regularly does 70 minutes shifts for Ireland and always has though. These are his average minutes for Ireland

    25/26 : 57 min (though he came off the bench for one, if we ignore that it is 65 min)

    24/25: 66 min

    23/24: 61 min

    22/23: 72 min

    21/22: 65 min

    20/21: 49 min (multiple bench appearances and back when he was at TH with Furlong).

    There was absolutely nothing unusual about his minutes played in last year's 6N.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,785 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Boyle literally got nine minutes against Wales. In the URC final, three months later, he got five. Porter stays on because he has a massive engine, not because Healy was old and if Boyle was as good as he’s now being made out to be, he kept it to himself.

    But this is utterly irrelevant. Boyle got two caps in the 6N, it’s simply not credible to say that if he’d had another 15 minutes against France then everything would be different. He’d still have been behind McCarthy in the Autumn. And since he’s out injured anyway, nothing we could have done last year would have made a blind bit of difference for this year.

    There is literally nothing to do except see how Milne, Loughman, Bohan and maybe TOT or Bealham get on and hope for the best

    Post edited by Former Former Former on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,709 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    In last years 6N (i dont know about the rest of the season, or why its relevant to a discussion about the 6N) he played about 70 mins each game. Except the last game where Boyle came on at 65 mins.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 33,042 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Which is what he quite frequently does regardless of who is benching behind him. He played slightly fewer minutes in the 24 6N and slightly more in the 23 6N.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,759 ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You’d be hard pushed to say that’s optimal tho… and imo, he’s beginning to look like a guy with a lot of miles on the clock.



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