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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 21,353 ✭✭✭✭Stark


    however their points re: pedestrians/cyclists with headphones is valid.

    Well I always wear some sort of headphones/earphones when out walking for various reasons (music/need to take a work call) and any car brainers who try to tell me I can't because I might need to jump out of their way can go **** themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,150 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    Should ear warmers and hats be banned?

    Should hearing tests and a minimum hearing ability be required?

    All of this goes back to allowing adults autonomy and the right to take responsibility for their own safety as they see fit and feel comfortable. What you consider as an obvious safety measure may not be considered in the same terms by another person.

    It's funny (and this isn't directed at you by the way, just a broader observation), the outcry for imposition of measures on cyclists, with little to no evidence to justify it. And the apparent readiness of the legislature to take steps. Yet - and you know where I'm going now - the idea of restricting the ability of motorists to wreck havoc on our streets is seemingly outrageous and unworkable. Couldn't possibly be done. Speed cameras?? Red light cameras??? More roads policing????? Vehicle colour and better lighting standards for cars???????? Speed limiters?????????????? Internet blockers?????????????????? Infotainment restrictions????????????????????????????????????????

    None of that could possibly be looked at apparently.

    I'm more than happy with the steps I take for my own safety on a bike and I won't listen to any calls for debate around changing laws for cyclists while there's a deafening silence regarding the number one nuisance and cause of death life changing injuries on the roads. People looking for that can come back to me when they lose the chip on their shoulder and are willing to have a full and reasonable discussion of all things road safety.

    Edit: apologies if that came off as a rant at you - it's not intended to be… I understand the points you're making and have no issue with anyone taking whatever steps they feel worthwhile to feel safer on their bikes.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Is it so unsafe that someone with a hearing impairment should not be allowed cycle, that's the line for me. i don't wear them anymore as I simply no longer like them, not for safety but I would routinely cover my ears in winter. it does affect my hearing, but it thankfully has not affected my eyesight. A person not looking around their surroundings while cycling is going to be far more dangerous to themselves and others than someone with headphones who is observant. The difference between someone observant with and without headphones on the other hand, I would say is marginal, a lot of times the wind is too loud for me to hear other traffic, in fact often other traffic is too loud for me to hear anything of note that I would need to be aware of but i certainly see them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    In most cases the person is totally oblivious to the cyclist approaching from behind. if you shout or ring a bell they get a fright/panic and will immediately react by moving left or right, possibly directly into your path.

    Much better to just pass them. They will still get a fright but you'll have passed them by then.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭ARX


    I've been on club spins where we've been on a shared bike pedestrian path and the lead rider has shouted "ON YOUR RIGHT!" at pedestrians facing away from us immediately before passing them close and at speed.

    You can't assume that they hear you. Even if they do hear you, they probably won't understand what a sudden roar of "WAWAWA!" from behind them signifies. Even if they hear and understand the words "ON YOUR RIGHT" you still can't assume that they will act in accordance with your expectation.

    When passing pedestrians on a shared path you have to - as CramCycle says - move out, give space, accelerate past, pull back in. We are quick enough to complain about close passes from motorists; we have no right to do the same to pedestrians.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    I wear earbuds while commuting (or cycling solo) by bike. In fact I feel naked without them.

    The biggest issue I have with them is my iPhone has being monitoring my listening habits and advised my that I listen to music at a volume that may affect my hearing. As a result it has limited the volume and won’t let me increase it!!

    I know my hearing is good and at first I was a bit pissed off with Apple for introducing this feature, but I guess limiting the volume I listen to music is a good thing. Ive been cycling with earbuds since the late 80’s and I’ve never had an issue hearing traffic, sirens etc. and I feel I am more observant than most because I wear earbuds while cycling.

    Everyone is different though…for some people earbuds are a distraction and I often think that if I was younger and just learning to cycle now I too would not wear them. I also think that maybe it’s because I’m so used to them that’s why I’m very aware that I need to be very observant? Even when I’m driving I always look over my shoulder when merging onto a motorway/parking in a tight spot etc.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Bells should absolutely be rung, but there's an art to good bellwork. It has to be done at enough of a distance that allows the person time to move into your path, and then back out again; loud enough to be heard at that distance, but not too loud so as to appear like an angry ring and cause offence; and gentle enough that it does not disturb the calm of a peaceful pastoral ambience.

    I haven't mastered it yet myself, but I'm getting there!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    that’s a good point…maybe a long “ring,ring” is better than a short sharp “RING!” When you only a foot or so behind the pedestrian?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,051 ✭✭✭Kaisr Sose


    On shared spaces or where pedestrians are walking on off road cycle lanes, I always give a single ping on the bell long before I get near them. You would be amazed how many will hear it and move over or off the lane. I would never not sound it and just pull out and pass them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,666 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    I wear earbuds too, same as I have a radio on in my car when I drive. It's up to me to be aware of my surroundings in both cases (ie not so loud as you can't hear other road users).



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,847 ✭✭✭JMcL


    image.png

    Make these compulsory. Problem solved (I'll get me coat)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 211 ✭✭Steoller


    get a two tone bell. People don't tend to get mad when they hear a ding-dong, rather than a shrill pinging.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,990 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    I use bone conductors, or one earbud. Doesn't hamper my hearing any more than wind noise, or the noise of vehicles if in an urban imo. If they were banned, well it would just be another thing not policed, but where would it logically leave hearing impaired people?

    I also do have a bell on the commuter (and did when I had a gravel bike) - generally I find it does work with plenty of notice tbh.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,037 ✭✭✭BP_RS3813


    No, they don't have the ability to play music.

    No.

    People will do stupid things. I believe in taking away the option to do said thing.

    I 100% agree with you on the cars once again. Red light camera's, automatic fines, speed camera's (average too!), better policing with no lackluster attitude should all be done.

    No offense taken - we largely agree on things. I do however concede to the motorist lobby/moaners that 'cyclists tend to have sh*t spacial awareness' aswell as pedestrians IMO although thats not specific to cycling. Phones, earphones etc all play their part in this.

    I think the above could be an easy win that doesn't given ammunition to the angry motorist crowd (which I despise) and also improves riders safety. Double win.

    Once again - no offense taken (we all need to rant).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭zell12




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,502 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    "I'm not racist, but…." etc.

    We've been here before. Concessions breed victim blaming, over and over again.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I think you underestimate how angry people behave and how little difference it will make. i used to ride with a guy who wore earbuds all the time as it cut out wind noise, should he be banned, should deaf people be banned. should noise conduction be banned, should ear muffs be banned in cold weather. I don't carry about ammunition to a bunch of people with emotional state of early stage teenagers. The idea of pandering to a group who have shown that they a) are not reasonable and b) are actually a small minority seems ludicrous. I wnat more than you think it will improve rider safety, I want some sort of evidence that it will. For example, are headphone wearing cyclists overly represented in accidents?

    From a H&S perspective, such a move should be backed by data showing it will lead to a statistically significant change to the level of incidents involving cyclists. I whole heartedly disagree with the "if it saves just one life" mentality, that is a dangerous road to travel and will undoubtedly lead to more deaths if followed through. A great example would be the mandatory use of helmets in Australia and parts of Canada. Both led to a reduction in cyclists with no measurable change to serious or fatal head injuries from cyclists. The negatives were that the all cause mortality on that group would rise over time, so there was no measurable positive on the predicted benefits and there were measurable negatives, that while not noticeable in the near term, are shown by studies to be factual in the long term (BMJ has two studies on the reduction on all cause mortality from cycling only at commuter distances).

    As for conceding poor spatial awareness from the motorist lobbys (the LHRA are one to talk with their refusal to entertain retrofitting safety features to older vehicles, and looking for exemptions to the driving time legislation when they can make more money), if even remotely true, we would have hospitals full of cyclists, cyclists for the most part need exceptional spatial awareness, and is just a strawman to bring it up. There are some who don't, but do not kill or seriously injure a large number of people. Whereas I would extrapolate an equal percentage volume of the motoring population have poor spatial awareness and/or reasoning and put people in hospital or coffins on a daily basis.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,150 ✭✭✭Paddigol


    There has to be a scientific basis for any changes to the law regarding how cyclists should behave. Cyclists have been on the roads longer than cars, and have managed to get by for decades without all this hot air about hi viz, helmets and earphones coming into the debate.

    1. Is there a sudden problem that can only be explained by cyclists using earphones and not wearing hi viz or helmets? Or is it all just hearsay and conjecture? Have the number of cyclists involved in accidents suddenly spiked? Are those figures even trending upwards in any unusual way at all?
    2. Is there any recent comprehensive reports/ studies/ research IN IRELAND specifically tasked with understanding these issues? Do those studies take into account any reduction in spatial awareness caused by wearing a helmet, for example?
    3. Is there any scientific basis for saying that forcing cyclists to wear helmets and hi-viz will bring about an immediate and noticeable reduction in whatever the supposed major issue is? I've no interest is some half-baked selective report put together with a hospital - it's parameters will be nowhere wide enough to show a proper picture. We're all well aware that you can find statistics to support almost any cause you like… "79% of people surveyed who pray at lease once a day live 1,246 days longer than those who masturbate 10 times a week" for example.

    To my understanding, serious accidents involving cyclists are relatively infrequent. It's rare enough that you ever hear of them compared to reports of pedestrians or motorists injured in RTAs. So why the sudden interest in fixing a problem that doesn't exist?

    And has the overall balance of convenience in term of the greater good to society been considered in this discussion - i.e. you can make cycling so inconvenient that people just stop cycling - you'll see less 'nightmares' caused by cyclists and presumably a corresponding reduction in accidents involving cyclists, but will the increase in car usage - more traffic jams, less parking, more congestion, more accidents involving motorists, and more harmful emissions - be worth it?

    Acceding to the rants of motorists just because it's not too much of an inconvenience isn't an acceptable ground to support changes to the law. You're immediately creating criminals out of people for simply continuing to do what they always did without any meaningful justification other than 'it would shut up the motorists'.

    There has to be an adult debate about this, and if the angry Journal comment section motorists are capable of that then I'm certainly not going to support any call to change the law just to appease them.

    And again, this whole discussion is taking place where the elephant in the room is the absolute carnage on the roads caused by motorists. It would be funny if it wasn't so serious. That judge talks about the nightmare on the roads caused by cyclists - I'd encourage him to listen to the traffic reports any morning/ evening where there will be without fail mention of delays caused by a motor accident. That's thousands of people whose days is actually affected because of driver behaviour, not some fanciful perception of a judge who doesn't like cyclists on the road around him. One single RTA between two cars anywhere on any road at rush hour and it's chaos. Where's the call for new laws, measures and policing there? There is none. The response is "we need more roads". So forgive me for taking a firm stance on calls by those same people for pathetic restrictions to be placed on a cohort of road users where there is no peer reviewed and substantiated evidence to say are causing any issues with road use.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 876 ✭✭✭LeoD


    Club spins on shared walking & cycle facilities? 😮



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 742 ✭✭✭ARX


    Only briefly (a couple of hundred metres at most) … I can't remember where it was, somewhere in Kildare I think. Wouldn't be my choice though.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,528 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,565 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's a vox pop masquerading as journalism. it's simply the opinion of seven random people.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,533 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    clickbait article … IT happy to post it FOC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 315 ✭✭Dowee




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 12,049 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    I ring a bell approaching blind corners on two-way and even one-way cycling infrastructure, and also passing parked high-walled vehicles: situations where you get people stepping out or coming towards you without caution. Passing pedestrians on a shared-use path or poorly segregated path I slow right down and say very clearly something like: I'm passing you on your right now; just so you know. It works ok. I gently ring a bell if people are walking three- or four abreast blocking both the pedestrian lane and the bike lane, because there's actually nothing brief I can say, and I'm not going to pass them until somebody moves out of the way anyway.

    I use one ear bud frequently when cycling. I can't actually hear much from the ear bud on most roads anyway, because of the tire roar from the motor vehicles, and I don't like turning it up too high.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 45,528 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,310 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    That kearney bloke is unhinged. I was going to reply telling him the footpaths have all been improved for pedestrians on the C2CC route as he says no pedestrian infra has been improved but I think avoiding commenting on the journal is a healthier option



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,502 ✭✭✭MojoMaker


    Journal commentary not good for one's mental health.

    It's quite depressing to process that we co-exist in this country with such a nasty intolerant cohort of "citizens".



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,777 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    There is a slight rush to replying to those comments, there is also the feeling that if you don't, two whings will happen, they will continue to believe their nonsense and that others may start to believe their nonsense as it is unchallenged.

    Sadly, while I often respond and do not learn my lesson, the truth is that whether you reply or not is inconsequential to their belief, they will continue to believe. There are a small number who will take what they say and come round to their beliefs but in reality most people won't or don't even read the comments. The numbers on those comment sections are tiny compared to the number of users, a random post in AH here gets more interaction despite presumably a lot less footfall.

    Save yourself the headache, don't read, don't reply, simply do not engage with them. You will not change their way of thinking, they will simply drag you down to their level and beat you to death (mentally) with their own stupidity.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,106 ✭✭✭✭zell12




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