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Irish rail fleet and infrastructure plans

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,012 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    I get that, issue here is could you make this work without disrupting the main demand flow of Limerick/LJ which is connections to Dublin.

    Best solution is Galway/Limerick J medium term.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 166 ✭✭BestWestern


    Best solution is via the Midlands. No matter what improvements made on the western rail corridor, it will remain quicker via Portarlington



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,482 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    probably how a lot of cork Galways train journeys are done? Quicker and better trains



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,482 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Looking at times on Irish rail it looks slightly quicker via limerick but depends on the time of the day



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,685 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    The WRC is the problem. It's so slow and meandering that it barely makes Limerick to Galway worth doing never mind all the way to Cork.

    Extending the route to Cork as you say would be great but more because it would mean direct Cork to Limerick which would be a good and relatively efficient service.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 431 ✭✭metrovick001


    "meandering"? …Its actually quite straight as a route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,685 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    It might look that way on a map but it's a very slow route.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73 ✭✭spark23


    I'm sure it wouldnt take a huge amount of investment to increase speeds



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Yes it would, straightening out the route was ruled out on cost vs benefits basis when the Ennis-Athenry part was reopened in 2011.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,922 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    we were in the pits of a recession though to be fair, so it's not surprising that anything like that would be ruled out on cost grounds.

    especially when the powers that be were still wedded to closing more of the network.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    I believe closing a number of the LCs alone would go along way. My understanding is that the number and quality of LCs is one of the biggest reasons for the 80km/h speed limit, not the alignment itself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,633 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    The Limerick-Limerick Junction shuttle is there to provide connections with the Dublin-Cork and Cork-Dublin trains.

    If you are going to run direct Cork-Limerick services, they would ideally operate half an hour later, between the existing Cork-Dublin services - otherwise you'd be running two trains directly behind one another between Cork and Limerick Junction and vice versa which makes no sense whatsoever.

    Personally, I think it would make far more sense to run one service from Galway to Limerick Junction & v.v. and let that connect with the Dublin-Cork & v.v. services and the Limerick Junction-Waterford service, and then run a separate Limerick-Cork service 30 mins adrift from that.

    That maximises connections while also offering a direct service.

    The key however, is to get the Dublin-Cork and Cork-Dublin trains passing each other as closely as possible at Limerick Junction - that needs speed improvements to be delivered on.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 16,439 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Would combining Limerick-Galway with Limerick-LJ not just make the latter service far less reliable? Presumably the numbers going between Limerick and LJ are 1st Dublin-Limerick, 2nd, Cork-Limerick, distant 3rd Cork-Galway. You'd be potentially making the service worse for maybe 90% of passengers so to save the remainder from having to make a change.

    Better to have any future Cork-Limerick direct service align with the Limerick-Galway service to make Cork-Galway a single change at Limerick.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 19,633 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    No it wouldn't necessarily. Why would it?

    You build in sufficient turnaround time in Limerick and, as with any single line schedule, build in recovery time at crossing points so that any delays are mitigated.

    Several trains are already through services to/from Galway and it doesn't create issues.

    If they do what you're suggesting then you would lose the Waterford connection to/from Galway, as that train needs to connect with the Dublin services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,056 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    When you say it's slow, do you mean due to issues that would cost huge amounts to change?

    Or could speeds / timings be improved by lower-cost solutions like passing loops, etc.?



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 24,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    One issue would be how you power the trains. Under Irish Rails plans I’ve seen they are planning to electrify the Limerick to LJ line with OHLE and of course Cork To LJ.

    That would mean Cork to Limerick trains could be pure EMU’s

    They aren’t planning to use OHLE for Limerick to Galway.

    Thus you would have to either BEMU’s or hydrogen trains for the Limerick to Galway section.

    it would certainly add cost, complexity and slower acceleration speeds to trains which could otherwise be pure EMU’s

    Obviously not impossible or anything, but certainly a major con IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Honestly I think there is a decent chance Limerick-Athenry will be electrified, although it wouldn't take priority over the Dublin IC routes. I think there are good reasons to.

    It is technically an IC corridor. It will be the primary rail link from Galway to Cork, Limerick, and maybe also Waterford (even with improvements I'm not sure how close Waterford-LJ-Galway and Waterford-Kildare/Heuston-Galway times would be). That makes it a very important corridor and I think it will become quite busy in the future.

    It will be both a reasonably busy and comparatively short (<100km) section of unelectrified rail to upgrade. Between Ennis commuters, WRC IC services, and if it ever gets built the Shannon commuter link there could be a fair bit of traffic on it.

    Then lastly, I believe it's likely Limerick-Ennis will be electrified as part of the Limerick-Shannon commuter rail programme. Which if it is then it wouldn't even be 60km to electrify, and combined with the previous reasons I think would make sense to upgrade.

    edit: Forgot to add, there is of course a question of the timeline of all the upgrades, even the electrification of the core IC network. I would be surprised if they jumped to electrifying Athenry-Limerick (or Athenry-Ennis) right after they finish the core lines, so an interim solution may be needed. However there will be hybrid units anyways, as the core network will be electrified in phases so I don't think that would be a problem.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,482 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    hard to see how Waterford to Galway journeys would be quicker this way especially if the main-line Waterford and Galway lines are improved and change at Kildare as usual. Way way down the future though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Waterford-LJ and Limerick/Ennis Jnc. - Ennis are two of the slowest lines on the network, both are limited to 80km/h. My understanding is this is largely due to the number and quality of LCs. However, things such as track quality may also be a problem, and for Waterford-LJ the manual signalling might not help either. However, the alignments while not capable of mainline speeds, are still able to do much more than just 80km/h.

    Limerick-LJ isn't all that much better being limited to 110km/h, also I believe because of the LCs.

    Ennis-Athenry while limited to 130km/h, has a good few LCs with significant speed restrictions. Though the number of LCs actually isn't too bad.

    That all said these lines are slow now, but that's also why there is so much time to save with what are minor interventions in the grand scheme of rail infrastructure costs. Especially for Waterford-LJ and Limerick-Ennis it wouldn't take much to save a lot of time.

    But also looking further in the future, an interchange at Kildare may not be possible, I think the HH-Portalington express line would bypass it. My guess is most services would only stop at Portalington and Heuston as that would cover most services, but interchange with Waterford-Dublin services would have to be in Heuston.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 369 ✭✭rounders


    On the topic of level crossings, has anything happened with the Cork Level Crossings project? I know it's took like 36 months to go through planning but I haven't seen any movement on it actually starting?

    It's frustrating Irish rail don't keep the Projects page up to date on their website

    https://www.irishrail.ie/en-ie/about-us/iarnrod-eireann-projects-and-investments/cork-line-level-crossings-project



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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,424 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Detailed design and construction tender preparation ongoing at the moment. Construction start in late summer 2026, subject to funding.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,763 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    This project will enable speed limits to be raised on the Dublin Cork line. Anyone any idea of the number of minutes this will improve journey times by?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    I am not sure if there are any official numbers, but it would hopefully it will save a few minutes. Though more importantly it should make journey times between Cork and LJ much more consistent. It should allow the section to function like clockwork, where as currently it is prone to a lot of delays because of the 7 LCs.

    Additionally in the long term the LCs would become very limiting to future frequency and speed increases. It is also just a massive safety improvement, as I believe some of the 7 are rated the most dangerous LCs in the country.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,552 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    I would hope closing those level crossings would make 2 hour journeys possible for the express train. The express does be wedged, probably time to introduce another.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    That would need ~15 minutes of time savings, which I think is quite unlikely with the LC closures alone.

    I do agree about the need for more services though. I suspect it will be one of the services enhancements looked at when some 22Ks are freed from Dublin commuter services.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    Believe it or not, most of these crossings are 90mph going through them. I have rarely had any delays as a result of them. It should allow a full 100mph running all the way through from Mallow to LJ when completed. This will save a few minutes, max 5 I would expect.

    What it will do is FINALLY make the Dublin to Cork mainline completely free of any level crossings, which is a huge safety advantage. The staff working the manual gates can be deployed elsewhere as positions come up due to retirements.

    It is crazy to think a person manually opens and closes the gates manually on the mainline with trains barreling towards them, for the odd few cars an hour passing through.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,552 ✭✭✭✭cgcsb


    I expected as much, I've never even seen a level crossing on the cork line, I guess because they go past the window so fast. Hopefully DART+ SW can make a difference, if it is built ofc. I find the slowest part of the journey is generally between Parkwest and Heuston.

    Also I know the Cork-Dublin express is timetabled at 2:14 but on a good few occasions I've seen it arrive in Heuston as much as 10 mins early. I wonder is there nearly capability there already for 2 hour journeys but the timetable is padded.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Believe it or not, most of these crossings are 90mph going through them. I have rarely had any delays as a result of them. It should allow a full 100mph running all the way through from Mallow to LJ when completed. This will save a few minutes, max 5 I would expect.

    You might not have had any delays (and I will admit I haven't either), but the documents the planning reports say they have been a big problem.

    What it will do is FINALLY make the Dublin to Cork mainline completely free of any level crossings, which is a huge safety advantage. The staff working the manual gates can be deployed elsewhere as positions come up due to retirements.

    I believe there are actually still a few LCs left on the line, but I am not sure of the exact amount im not sure. If I had to guess after the LC closures there will probably 5-10 left.

    Back in 2017 (which is what I have the data for from looking at old FOI requests) there were 19 LCs on the Cork mainline, all but one of which were between Ballybrophy and Mallow. These include the 6 LCs being closed (and 1 being upgraded) from the Cork LC project, which would leave just 13. Of the remaining it's very likely a few have been closed here and there over the years, but probably not all.

    3 will be CCTV crossings (including the one being upgraded) and there are probably still a couple private road and field crossings left. However with all public road crossings being CCTV it would make the case to eliminate any remaining ones very easy.

    It is crazy to think a person manually opens and closes the gates manually on the mainline with trains barreling towards them, for the odd few cars an hour passing through.

    While there aren't many physically staffed LCs(CCTV are technically staffed, but remotely) on the network, the vast majority of LCs on the network are user operated.

    In fact of the ~860 LCs on the network, 500 are field crossings which are all user operated. The number of user operated LCs is the reason why may line have such low speed limits.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 691 ✭✭✭PlatformNine


    Actually depending on how much the timetables are padded, the LC closures could save more time than I thought.

    I forgot to consider that, reading through the reports I was just looking at the delay the LCs add, but I forgot the timetables could already be padded to help account for some of that delay.

    I would think the majority of the padding is between Portalington and Heuston, but I am not sure. I don't know enough about the time tables to say.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,604 ✭✭✭bikeman1


    Sorry, I should have said all manned crossings on the Cork mainline.

    You will still be left with at least 3 automated ones. The one upgraded one on this project, Emly (Charleville - JJ) and Grange (LJ - Thurles) that I am aware of.

    They actually have done plenty of closures along the line. Look out as you travel. An easy one to see is Kyle Crossing (just North of LJ) where it has been closed and bricked up. Others have closed and a road built down to an adjacent bridge or underpass.

    I travel the line quite a bit, and this section is not subject to any delays in my experience because of the crossings. They absolutely have to be upgraded, which will allow for a smoother operation.

    The delays tend to come from waiting on a late running shuttle from Limerick or conflicts at Killarney Junction (Kerry line) or at Portlaoise waiting for the stopper to shunt into the siding (down road).



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