Cork - BusConnects

The City Centre stops get extremely busy! As you said, it can take 20 minutes to board, and some of the footpaths can't handle the number of passerbys and the bus queue (thinking of Patrick Street outside Debenhams). This is only going to get worse when they're consolidated at Eglinton Street, Kent Station, Parnell Place Station and Patrick Street. I think an immediate solution is just introduce the flat €2 fare now and have the driver just press any route destination. It's a little less driver interaction, and buys some time while waiting for the tap on/tap off machines.

They also need to get stricter about exiting using the middle door only. So many people still get off at the front, and often it's because the driver doesn't even open the middle door at a stop. On Dublin Bus, there is a regular announcement saying to exit via the centre door

Finally, they need to sort the route announcements. First of all, most drivers turn the volume down, so you can barely hear it. Second of all, the actual route name is said at a lower volume to "next stop", meaning you can barely hear it even when the volume is up. Finally, they don't need "next stop/an chéad stad eile" before every single stop. When you're on a road with a lot of stops close to eachother where people aren't getting on or off (such as Douglas Road), you'd go insane hearing the constant "next stop/an chéad stad eile" announcement. I suspect that's why the drivers turn it down. On Dublin Bus, they just say the stop name

Also 'Bus Down The Country' (as the attitude that CIE would imply) seems to be obsessed with taking cash fares and Leap Card isn't tap and enter - rather there's a song and dance with having to interact with the driver.

There should be entry and exit doors, and there should be simple tap in, as you board ticketing.

I don't know why CIE companies have to do everything arseways in uniquely CIE ways. Nobody else in Europe does things this way, but for some reason, CIE's exceptional…

It's like they've never seen a high volume city bus service operating anywhere and just continue with these daft practices.

They can't get the on-board announcements to work? Why am I not shocked or surprised?

Are people just oblivious to how ridiculous it all is becuase they're used to dealing with this level of weird, island exceptionalism approaches to absolutely everything all the time? or is it just that they've become accustomed to extremely low expectations.

Meanwhile they're talking about introducing EMV contactless payment systems in in 2028, only 16 years after TFL rolled it out in London and 18 years after it arrived in France.

Quite honestly, nobody cares who they are - they're the state run public transit system and they're just a total mess - can't keep track of their endless branding changes either. The P&T of public transport!

Cork has diabolical public transport and it's commented upon by everyone who ever moves here. It just does not work and there's endless talk and talk and more talk about fixing it for as long as I can remember and it never happens. I think most of the population has just no expectation of anything working properly and have given up - hence the massive queues of cars on the N40 every morning, which is insanity for a small city that could be ticking away with a high quality bus service taking a huge volume of commuters off the roads, but nah, sure why bother. Let's all just get fined for the massive CO2 overruns and inability to organise a pissup in a brewery.

I remember when I moved here first there used to be clapped out ex-Dublin busses with diesel smoke spewing out the back and seats that were still in Dublin bus branding and the destinations of the 'country busses' to places like carrigaline used to be stuck on the window with paper most of the time as the rollers didn't even have the destinations on it, and that was only when they bothered putting them up. Then they'd give you a little square ticket with nothing written on it because there was no ink in the printer.

Nothing's changed.. still same mentality and lack of service.

The general view in the city is people don't use public transport because they know it will either not be reliable or will be an unpleasant experience. It's like the kind of system you'd expect in some small anti-public transport US city somewhere, only it doesn't have the road capacity as its an ancient European city with narrow streets, so you sit in a snarl.

And you can be sure the Cork Luas won't happen as it's non-Dublin.

I’ve been waiting at the South Mall for longer than 10 minutes before, but now that I type this, that may be to get back on the timetable. Regarding the flat fare, it’ll save a few seconds as the driver won’t have to look through the list of destinations to find the right destination. They can just press any button

You’re right that not all buses have centre doors, including none of the single deckers, but I still think they should at least try enforce it if there is one (which there usually is these days tbf). Or at the very least the drivers should be instructed to open it at every stop if someone has pressed the button to get off

I don’t agree with the need for “next stop” - they don’t have it in Dublin and it’s fine. It’s also very audible in Dublin. You’re entirely right about the volume mastering, though - it will never be fixed. If we said anything to BÉ, they’d probably say be grateful you even have route announcements

They also really need to sort out the display scrolls on the bus digital displays, and the stop names. They shouldn’t be using businesses for bus stops, as they could eventually close down, like Argos and Daybreak on Grand Parade, and Carryout on the Douglas Road. So many of the bus scroll digitised displays show incorrect routes, the 220 being the main culprit (it shows the 220X route). Even the 220X itself often just says “Ovens via” and the a blank line. You can also see the lack of local knowledge in the route maps and route numbers at stops. Apparently once a day the 220X uses the Douglas Road (I have never seen it before). However, half of the stop signs say 220X on them, despite it rarely if ever serving them. You’ll be standing there a long time waiting. Same with the 223 on South Douglas Road and Rossa Avenue. As Pixel said, the incompetence is just accepted, and nothing ever really changes. Fair enough if there are software issues, but the tap on validators have been promised for a very long time. We still have none. I’m hoping all the new bus stops and Tivoli works mean we will get the long promised new routes soon too. However, most of the southside routes depend on the Anglesea Street contraflow bus lane, and there’s been no movement on it outside of getting planning a few years ago. The public are to blame for the watering done of the STCs, but the NTA are still moving at a glacial pace with them

Reading through these last few posts, it really does paint a bleak picture of public transport in Cork City. A few thoughts of mine here:

1. Cork is not that big a city/county, yet the traffic is atrocious, N40/JLT queue each day is akin to something in a mid city car centric US city. The other infuriating thing is how difficult it is to go across the city from Mallow to Ringaskiddy. From Blarney to Douglas, pure torture!
2. There is an inherent distrust and disapproval of public transport in Cork. Case in point; my 70s Father in Law. Born and raised Cork city man, Lives literally 5mins from a bus stop on a high frequency route. Flat our refuses to use a bus as long as I know him. Why? He can't control it. He can't cope when the bus is late, or if it doesn't bring him absolutely directly to where he wants to go. If for example he went to the local he could get the bus, but he would take another 5minute walk from bus stop to pub, and that is not an option!!
3. NIMBY gobshites and worse of all local city councillors who enable their shite! As said here a bus connects plan has been published but will take 10+ years to roll out and ultimately will be watered down useless. Why? cos Finbarr on the Douglas Road is worried he might lose a parking spot or he might lose 0.25metres of front garden, which includes a tree he planted with his son Fionbarra in 1984. Nobody thinks bigger picture, nobody looks to future generations. And this is all enabled by local parish politics gombeens.
4. I think bus connects is absolutely crucial it will connect more people, connect a wider range of the city, more people/areas impacted. It will have a much bigger impact than Cork Luas (I am not that convinced on it, smaller catchment area) and CARC (wonderful, but a restricted catchment area), it needs to be implemented and supported by national and local politicians.
5. I would love more greenways/cycle lanes. I do a little cycling to and from work. And even the last 2 weeks the amount of people using Tramore Valley Park, Marina, Curaheen greenways. Just build more of them around the city. Connect areas of population to schools, colleges, areas of employment. Build it and they will come/use the greenway! But again NIMBY fools backed by city councillors will delay everything.

Cork has no more a complicated a city center than countless European cities. It's an excuse and a very weak one. It's a typical river delta city of its era and it's got a lovely setting an a lot of unrealised potential.

I agree though that Irish public authorities definitely have a notion that cities are small rural towns. I don't think as a country we really ever have had a focus on or understanding of urbanism - we have often been very hostile to it. It's almost as if the state idealised this notion of country lifestyle and saw cities as a negative or even an unwanted concept.

We built a lot of ultra low density urban hinterland scatter in the 20th century and very poorly planned cul de sac development - fomer Cork County Council areas in the suburbs are full of it - look at Rochestown for example, there weren't even footpaths - the county allowed housing estates to be put on were country lanes. The city proper was never that badly planned, but the hinterland was chaotically developed.

It's also not just Cork, it's the same in Dublin, Galway, Limerick and Waterford and the towns are often also undermined at every turn too.

I think at the core of this is Ireland has or had a serious problem with urbanism and also we embraced a sort of Dallas (the TV show) notion of what to aspire towards in the middle 20th century - cars, bungalows, rural Mc Mansions .. ranches...

You can see it starkly in how Dublin was destroyed by hollowing it out. Cork sees elements of it and so does Limerick. The city was often seen as a negative - a place to get away from or sneer at rather than embrace. It often represented poverty, vice, crime, strong accents and so on. It's not very European in the outlook - we are getting beyond it but it is too slow and it lacks institutions like competent, capable city and accountable city councils etc.

Ireland is rapidly urbanising, but still failing to comprehend urbanism or urban lifestyles.

This is going a bit off topic for buses, but I think it's all connected

I think what doesn't help is the perception of what Cork City actually is. The official Cork City area extends from Ballincollig in the east, Rochestown in the west, Blarney in the north and the Airport in the south. In my opinion, it should go further to Carrigaline and Passage, but let's just take the city proper. A lot of people don't consider, say, Tower as part of Cork City, as it isn't Patrick Street. Even though it is just as much Cork City as Patrick Street is (for example, Patrick Street is outside the original City Walls). The "city" is somewhere else, somewhere with its own problems, it's the island. It's not. That's the city centre. The city is the urban area and surrounding towns. I think this distinction is vital as it removes the othering of the the city centre as "somewhere else", and embraces it as ours. The success of the city centre is as important to Mahon as its own success. A greenway being built in Curaheen is as important to Turner's Cross as a proper connection to Tramore Valley Park is. A bus lane on Wilton Road is as important for people in Bishopstown as it is for people navigating Sunday's Well Road. I think this lack of cohesion has led to in-fighting, a lack of unified identity, and ultimately a worse situation for everyone. This goes back to the rural mindset too that is placed on Cork, both by its people but also the government. The City Council needs more power, and there needs to be more of an embrace of city identity, as now we end up in this sitatuon where people living in Douglas are convinced they live in a small rural village, instead of being in one of the most populated neighbourhoods on the island of Ireland (because it was a village 200 years ago). If the southside of Cork City was its own city, it would still be the second biggest city in the country. Another government example - when you're on the N8 eastbound by Kent Station, there is a road sign saying to go to "Cork", turn right onto Water Street. If you continue straight, all that area accessed by the N8 (Tivoli, Mayfield, Glanmire, Ballyvolane) is all Cork too. This was probably put up by TII or someone not based in Cork. It's fracturing the identity of the city and its people, and further leading to this idea that "sure it's just Cork" - ignoring the fact that this is part of why we have insane traffic on the N40 that shouldn't be seen in a city of our size.

"Traffic is bad on the N28, we should add a Carrigaline P&R to the City Centre to reduce traffic"

"Nah, that won't do anything, most of the N28 traffic is going to Mahon Point"

SO BUILD A PARK AND RIDE TO MAHON POINT

Some great points here in both posts. As explained the famine and missing out on the industrial revolution created a rural living country. Cities/Urban areas were seen as foreign and scary. It really is only since the Celtic Tiger that our mindset has changed from rural to Urban, that is only 25-30 years. Unfortunately our town planners /councillors are far behind, still in this rural Ireland setting.

From a cork perspective, the city was hamstrung by the city/county council divide. I am living in a part of Cork city that is a perfect example of this. 100s of houses, 1000+ more coming in the next 10 years. Nothing, zero, zilch in the way of local infrastructure, amenities, active travel, community. I wish we learned the lessons of the Celtic Tiger and Dublin/Commuter belt sprawl. In the city We need better public transport, active travel options and real local amenities that can help build a local community. Instead we all have to drive everywhere, every day for everything, GP, school, local shop, GAA, pharmacy etc etc. Then we wonder why traffic has gotten so bad. Its just terrible town planning.

Yes you are correct, they have done very very well down at the Marina. I was there over xmas also, there were so many people, absolutely rammed with bikes, kids, people of all ages, all getting exercise and fresh air In a safe, segregated way.

And another big thing, there is plenty to do also, PUC, the markets, playgrounds, blackrock pier village is lovely, with lovely cafes etc. In comparison to Tramore Valley Park where there are very limited amenities, to attract people in.

A couple, of things I observed while there.

1. All the car parks were jammed. I imagine nearly everyone has to drive to get there, which is annoying.
2. I hope they connect the bit from Blackrock pier to the castle. But the most important connection would be back to the city centre, this is crucial and really a missing link. I presume they need to wait for LUAS and all the building/demolition that will take place in the area.
3. One small thing that annoyed me, and this is being awfully pedantic I know. There is a new playground in the old convent. A few 100 meters east another new playground, and slides. 3 facilities for kids, very close together. But there are other parts of the city with no playground, or run down, ancient ones. Maybe a spreading of investment across the city would have been better.
4. Overall it is a fantastic amenity, really beautiful and could become a focal point for Lee to Sea greenway if ever completed. I am a firm believer of “Build it and they will come”. What I mean is, like the Marina, if you invest in an active travel area, put in some amenities, and link to cafes, or pubs, people will come and use it. I hope Cork city council have seen this success and could replicate it across the city. For example the Northside badly needs something like a Regional Park or something. Build the Lee to Sea greenway. You could easily connect Passage all the way to MTU. A lot of the network is there, they just need to fill in and connect the missing parts.

I know we're off topic here in the Bus Connects thread but that positive work the city did in the marina is being replicated elsewhere piecemeal in fairness. I used to be scathing of the city council but they are at least trying to get a lot done.

When we visit the Marina we've found ourselves saying "if this was in another country we'd be moaning about why it can't be done at home in Ireland". That scheme needs to be replicated elsewhere in the city. And local authorities around the country need to come and study it.

It seems obvious to me that any redevelopment of Tivoli could start with a similar effort: open a park and greenway as a first phase, use existing warehouses and buildings for markets etc and then get the apartments in. It's a good example of council-led gentrification.

There's a few projects going through simultaneously but the Docklands to city centre improvement scheme (Q1 2025 consultation) would big a big leap forward.

https://consult.corkcity.ie/en/consultation/cork-docklands-city-centre-road-network-improvement-scheme

Kennedy Quay needs to be done too though. No idea what to say about the stretch between Marina Market and Shandon Boat Club though, someone needs to bite the bullet there and talk to the landowners I'd say.

This is the one in which they wish to create even more traffic jams by removing the Victoria Rd roundabout and replacing them with even more traffic lights.