Mumsnet are debating prostitution in Ireland. Why aren't we?

Hello,

I'd posted on the Mumsnet thread referred to here as I saw long-time decrim activist Jenny Shaw was involved in the debate. However, I was banned, probably for being a "pro-prostitution scold" (that's literally what one user called me).

After I realised my account was deactivated, I did some searching around Mumsnet banned posters to see how common this was (answer: very!) and stumbled on this mess of a thread. I can't opine there as much as I would have liked, but I hope I can here. I apologise in advance, as this will be long, but there's a lot to say. I guess I'm trying to make sense of this thread. (And yes, I'm a first timer here! 🙂).

First, I'll give some background. I work with vulnerable women such as domestic abuse victims, and have dealt with several sex workers in my time too. And I'm Irish, though based in England. The sensitive nature of my work means that this is as much as I can say about it.

As a result, I fully support decrim as practised in New Zealand and Belgium. Sex workers should have the same entitlements as any other worker, chiefly access to healthcare, educational opportunities, legal and financial resources, and a life free of stigma, shame, exclusion, and exposure to violence.

The Nordic Model is an evil and stupid "solution" to the "problem" of sex work, as it denies sex workers all of the above, but I think it's popular because it's easy to understand. If "prostitution" (their term, not mine) is violence against women, and men buying sex is what drives it, once you stop men buying sex you will eliminate prostitution.

Not hard to grasp, is it? And politicians love peddling simple solutions to complex problems, which is why they peddle this one. I won't cover the problems with it, as it's very clear that those problems have been discussed at length here in the past.

I do have several problems with the conceit the OP has displayed here. They object to Mumsnet having this discussion because they are a British website. But that's not the odd bit. As Hotblack Desiato said, there are plenty of Irish Mumsnet users (I was briefly one!). Nor is it odd for Mumsnet to discuss sex work, as there are several threads on the topic including an AMA with a former sex worker.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/AMA/4046482-I-used-to-be-a-sex-worker-ask-me-anything?page=1

The odd bit is that the OP started the thread with no real frame of reference at all. They didn't check Mumsnet for other threads relating to sex work before labelling it odd. They didn't check boards.ie for any previous threads either (such as the ones AndrewJRenko linked).. And they didn't even begin a discussion when starting the thread. They just posted a link to Mumsnet, a link to Anna Rajmon's memoir, and asked why this topic wasn't being discussed.

By the way, I doubt Sleepy's claim that this thread was done for PR purposes on Anna Rajmon's behalf. Features, reviews and interviews of her and her work have appeared in the Irish Examiner, Global Comment, Bella Caledonia, Slugger O'Toole, etc. She has no problem getting legitimate media attention. And if a PR firm did something as cack-handed as this thread, she'd be well within her rights to demand her money back.

It seems to me that the OP has read nothing about the subject before seeing the Mumsnet thread. The Bella Caledonia article linked there actually gives a decent overview of the problems with the Nordic Model on the island of Ireland, detailing the ways it has failed to stop trafficking and the ways it has failed to protect sex workers. It has plenty of reference links for background reading, but the OP shows no evidence that they've engaged with any reading of the extensive media coverage within Ireland on this (let alone the Mumsnet and boards.ie threads).

The OP started this thread by asking why no one in Ireland was discussing this, as though the British had no right to. It's like saying only Americans have the right to comment on Trump. And they presumed nothing was discussed because they saw nothing recent, forgetting that the Nordic Model has been in place in the Republic since 2017, and in the North since 2015. There's been scope for discussion long before now, and those discussions have been had.

"Silvergrey25" was wrong, the OP hasn't apologised nearly enough for the complete lack of background reading and research done on a complicated and sensitive subject. 

(By the way, I looked into this and "Silvergrey25" is a name used by a punter who posts on the Escort Ireland forums. Whether the one here is the same or not I don't know. And I must be as much of an idiot as Jim_Hodge, as all the talk of "Ruhama plants" and "website plants" made as much sense to me).

So to sum up, I think Ireland would definitely benefit from doing away with the Nordic Model as both governments now acknowledge it is a failure. And there's nothing wrong with discussing it here or on Mumsnet, though the latter clearly have an ideological line you can't stray from. But you do need to know what you're talking about, and you need to not presume no one else knows about it. Those are the two cardinal sins the OP committed here.

As for Anna Rajmon's book Elis, it is worth reading if you want to know how bad life is for sex workers in Ireland. But it's not for everyone, as there was some truly disturbing things she experienced. But it's readable and there's humour and sarcasm which softens the bite of it. So that's my plug done! 😉

I'm not likely to post too much here, but this particular thread rubbed me the wrong way. And I needed to vent. I hope it's of some value.

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all. 🎄

Edit: Belgium recently decriminalised both sex work and the purchasers. The Netherlands did so in the 1990's. Germany did so in the 1998-2002 government. I think in some respects, Ireland are outliers on this issue.

Reportedly there were widespread doubts on both sides of the Dail when this law went through. But we have seen from experience that FF and FG do not tolerate different points of view making their way into how TDs and Senators actually vote.

The bodily-autonomy argument would say consenting adults should be allowed to engage in sexual activity with other adults, regardless of whether money is involved. However, for there to be consent, there should not be element of coercion. I think the New Zealand model is the best way of reconciling these objectives, as it allows sex workers to sue pimps.

Many feminists argue that it's impossible for there to be consent in prostitution, but I think that statement infantilises sex workers, and has some echoes of the Church's view of women as being unable to make their own decisions. Ruhama, remember, was founded by the nuns.

Labour leader Ivana Bacik used to support decriminalisation in the 1990s.

We love to offload awkward issues to NGO's. In this case it seems the exclusive reserve of Ruhama.