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WFH is dead and buried. Right to WFH bill is pointless

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Onboarding isn't mentoring or training. It's usually a short induction.

    Onboarding is 1970 management speak. Popular with HR departments.

    Everyone likes to blame remote working. But reality socialising at work fell away before COVID. It's too expensive and transport too difficult. Unless the company subsides it. That rarely happens now. Companies don't spend on employees like they used to. No such thing as permanent job. No job security no loyalty either.

    That's what destroys "culture"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,019 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Nonsense: it's very easy to interrupt people with unplanned Teams (etc) calls . In some ways easier, because you can monitor their presence from your desk. And if the feckers don't answer, or aren't logged in, you complain to their manager. Instead of being able to see at a glance that they're dealing with something at the moment and you'll do better in 15 minutes.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Not entirely sure how you see everyone out of eyesight or on other floors.

    I think you've proved the point that more interruptions happen in the office because you see them, and less can't when you can't see them. Also that you want people in the office so you can interrupt them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭techman1


    Onboarding is 1970 management speak. Popular with HR department

    1970s come on, the first i heard the term was during covid, its a new word definitely not from 1970s. Why would a 1970s manager be needing to "onboard" people sure they were all on board in the workplace all the time? Most people didn't work in offices either back then , they were in industrial jobs



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭SodiumCooled


    It’s very easy to fill up your calendar with fake meetings though so you show as busy. Not so much an issue now in my current job but in the last job I more or less filled any time that wasn’t on calls or in meetings with fake meetings so I’d be left alone to actually get work done.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,085 ✭✭✭Rocket_GD


    I believe that poster thinks they were invented by Ricky Gervais and the BBC.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The earlier attestation for "onboarding" in the Oxford English Dictionary is from 1990, and it's American. And, even then, it was a sufficiently new word thar the writer felt the need to put it in inverted commas. ("One division of the company implemented an ‘on-boarding’ program for new hires.")



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,316 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    We're not dating people here. You don't have to "get to know" someone intimately to work with them.

    I've talked to clients and people in other vast departments for years I've never met. Pre-Covid half our team was based in another office - we met only a handful of times over almost a decade, it had no impact on the work we did or performance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭Soc_Alt


    I believe in 2026, Many companies will implement Office Attendance into their performance management reviews in relation to paying out bonuses.

    A large amount of companies who want RTO will push it in 2026.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭SodiumCooled


    Most would forgo a bonus to retain wfh. Dell already attempted something similar saying to be eligible for promotion etc you must attend the office x number of days per week (it wasn’t even a full 5 day RTO). The majority said fair enough and were happy to forgo promotions and remain wfh.

    Plenty of people willing to take pay cuts also to leave a job forcing RTO to move to a remote or hybrid role - I’ve done it myself.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭Soc_Alt


    Each to their own I guess. People leaving companies saves on company restructuring when transitioning to lower cost countries and redundancy payouts in the end.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭techman1


    Of course not, I was just using online dating as an example of how getting to know a work colleague online has its limits. Yes you maybe able to work adequately with someone you never met in reality but there is no real "culture " generated in that case. That stuff works at a high level but not at lower levels where most people really work.

    For example in the Irish civil and public sector the biggest pushers of WFH, they are not dealing with headquarters in the US and worldwide, they are dealing with Irish based issues mostly at low levels, they won't like to hear that obviously but its true. Therefore it is much more important that a collegiate culture is formed where workers help each other out and get to know each other properly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Anyone working across different organisations, parts of the country or intentionally will never meet the people they work with.

    Even in the public sector they are often working with outside organisations, country wide or internationally and with many contractors who they never meet.

    Even in within the same organisation lots of people have never met their colleagues in other parts of the building, but work on the same projects.

    The days of needing to be in the same room ended with the wireless and the telephone. Probably before that with postal services.

    If someone needs to be the same room as someone to work with them or have a good working relationship. That's entirely that person's dysfunction. It's not a limitation everyone has.

    Tbh one of the few times I might prefer an in person meeting is when someone is an especially poor at communicating. They'll be brutal in person as well.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Have to lol using promotion as a carrot when many people will know they've hit the ceiling in their role.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 895 ✭✭✭SodiumCooled


    In a small number of companies maybe, in others it makes them bleed expertise and institutional knowledge that they struggle to replace.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Studies showed this. As the people who leave to get better terms and conditions are often those with enough skillset and experience to get better conditions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,316 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Pre-Covid I didn't meet 90% of the people who I was regularly contact with where I work, and that was despite them being in the same country and in the same set of buildings.

    I'm someone who understands the need to be in the office for certain functions and reasons - but there's also a lot of corporate BS spouted to rationaise the "need" to be in the office. Especially now that much of it has demonstrated to be redundant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 927 ✭✭✭littlefeet


    At this stage, posters are rehashing the same argument over and over again. For the vast majority, where wfh is possible, it's going to be blended working, and they just get on with it.

    My news feed today has an article about someone leaving their house at 6.45 am with a baby, so they could put the baby in a creche and start work in City West at 830am.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    You must be a right pleasure to work with. /s

    Before WFH? You could interrupt them with a phonecall.

    Now? You can see at a glance if they're available (green light), busy (red light), or otherwise engaged (amber light) - can be AFK, gone to the watercooler, making a coffee, been called in to an in-person meeting, on the actual phone. Maybe you just need to ask for some basic training.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    I've been hearing that for about 3 years now. Still hasn't happened.

    I'd be a bit worried about the long-term future of a company that did that sort of box-ticking, rather than having things like "Met all KPIs" or "Hit all agreed goals" in their annual reviews.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭Soc_Alt


    Many multinationals and transitioning to lower cost countries outside of the EU.

    They also no longer need the office space in Dublin and surrounding areas with people refusing to RTO.

    Its been made clear to everyone working in the Tech sector that if companies believe work can be done remotely which has all but been confirmed by their employees who refuse to RTO , Then that work can be done remotely from lower cost locations.

    You cant blame the companies, employees have argued that their roles in the companies can be done from anywhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    But that's always been the case. It's one of the main reasons why a huge chunk of tech companies are set up here, in the first place. Cheaper to do business here than Silicon Valley (also needing a presence in the EU, plus English, sure).

    It's why a load of outsourcing to India and elsewhere for customer support roles took place. A lot of companies rolled back on those decisions, though…

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 446 ✭✭Soc_Alt


    Its hasnt always been the case.

    But now its not the case. companies are not going to be renting office space or expanding operations in ireland if work is done remotely. It wasnt common to work remotely in 2019 and before.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 927 ✭✭✭littlefeet


    An article in the Irish Times magazine, I have great empathy for the people. Still, some of it was mental along the lines of ..they get the oldest two who are under 10 to mind the baby, devices, TV, while they take part in an online meeting, working in the kitchen while children are running around, winging it, getting up at 4 am to get a few houres work in befor chidlren got get up, a mix of cant get child care, dont want to pay for child care, or cant afford child care.

    One man seemed to have it sorted, but he takes an hour for lunch and works late in the evening, and the school is close enough that he can drop them off on foot.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,019 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Lots of outsourcing is now going to Eastern Europe. Standards of English are a lot higher im Bulgaria and Romania.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,140 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    yeah i read that and thought it didnt do much to strengthen the case for WFH, huge amount of juggling going on and very little in the way of formal child care.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 927 ✭✭✭littlefeet


    Yes, it's probably honest for a fair number of people, though. I really do have empathy for the position some people are in; employers knowing it's going on could be a reason for some of the return to the office, but no company is going to state that publicly, they would be slated, or in the case of the public service, the unions would get involved.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    No, they wouldn't.

    The core assumption of WFH is in the name - you're working. Absolutely, there's flexibility, as there should be, and a small percentage (as in all walks of life, including fulltime "work" in the office) will take the mickey, but the vast majority of people do a full day's work and aren't having 8 year-olds looking after babies, or getting up at 4am to do 2 hours before school runs, and whatever other bollocks the Irish Times was saying (i.e., the paper that makes the majority of its money from property supplements, including commercial property, these days!)

    In five years of this, across two jobs, I've had to have a quiet word with two staff members about availability. It wasn't even taking the piss levels. And things improved. Any decent manager isn't going to let things get to that stage. Because if it's obvious to a manager, it will be obvious to colleagues, who will understandable be going "why should I be picking up the slack for Bob, he's never around when I need him."

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭no.8


    Couldn't disagree more on the 'getting to know' a person factor tbh, but each to their own. Mainly WFH atm with a dispersed, albeit small trans-continental workforce. I knew more about them in 1/4 of the time versus previous office-based jobs where you sometimes feel a massive pressure to avoid social connection unless it's the managers call. Having said that i do get out and meet clients.

    Productivity is higher given the lack of disruption for the most part. The forced remote working terms from the pandemic / lessons landed learned have helped a lot too.

    Long term, i think the hybrid model of two or three days a week on-site for desk-based jobs could be the best compromise for a workforce and management structure used to alternative options.



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