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WFH is dead and buried. Right to WFH bill is pointless

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭techman1


    We have collaboration tools these days. Teams. Zoom. Webex. Slack.

    I can transfer knowledge much better, or receive it so much easier, by screen sharing and watching - even recording!

    That only works if the new hire is as clued into all those tools as the established guy. Also there could be a power play going on given that the new guy might be intimidated by the established guy and afraid to say he doesn't understand what is being said. No wonder all the new hires during covid picked up very little knowledge.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,316 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Any new hire can use video sharing - I know I've had many

    In office training is preferable, but remote training far outstrips it in terms of flexibility. We used to have to fly people to and from all over the world - now we do it remotely.

    99% of our compulsory training is also done by video.

    Keep in mind there are still companies out there that are fully remote. They save a fortune and have no problem finding talent at low cost.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 263 ✭✭HurlingBoy


    I don't think there is any issue with doing training over zoom or teams but the general social aspect of office is what young people miss out on if fully remote. Building connections with colleagues is important. You never really get to know people working remotely. Spending 8 hours a day in a box room is not healthy but commuting 5 days is equally not health either which is why there needs to be a balance.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 854 ✭✭✭kazamo


    You are way over estimating the knowledge transfer in previous generations.

    Training was haphazard, questions were responded with “look at what was done last time\last year” and no matter how little training you received, if you did something wrong, you got a bollicking.

    The older generations learn’t one valuable lesson, think on your feet.

    I work in an office now and alongside and the art of verbal communication is dying rapidly. Hard to train the people who don’t communicate and don’t really care as they have no intention being there in two years time.

    WFH if it was eliminated overnight wouldn’t do much for training or knowledge transfer as it takes two people to interact and show interest.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Well thank **** for blended working, then. Best of both worlds.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    That might just be you, though. Ours seem to have managed just fine.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    This, from the person who was previously saying that managers need staff present so they can make sure they're working and aren't breaking GDPR all over the place? These people can have office romances while their manager is standing behind them, making sure they're not watching Netflix, sharing IP outside the organisation, and are hitting their KPIs?

    Which is it?

    Or did you get sidetracked by the poster insisting The Office was actually true-to-life and how all offices are like that in reality?

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Ooh, strawmen, my favourite kind of fallacious argument!

    Actually, I have an almost completely remote relationship with quite a few friends and family, because of distance, and schedules. Most normal people do! It's… fine? When time allows, they visit, or I visit them, we catch up in person. Other times, it's WhatsApp chats, and voice and video calls. You don't do this?

    I agree taking on fresh new hires that are completely remote probably isn't going to work out well for them. Thank **** for blended working, so!

    Some of (but far from all of) the most innovative companies in the world are seeking more time in the office because they have spent tens of millions on showpiece landmark offices, and/or are tied into long term leases, and they think it looks bad to have those offices mostly empty.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,140 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    surely the massive efficiency and productivity gains that people who favour fully remote working claim would more than offset the lease costs ?

    It's almost as if CEOs don't know how to run their companies but boards posters have it all worked out…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,019 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    That's not what I said, either then or now.

    Really baffled by your jump from socialisation to romances. It's almost as if you have a very limited view of how the world works.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭techman1


    You are way over estimating the knowledge transfer in previous generations.

    Training was haphazard, questions were responded with “look at what was done last time\last year” and no matter how little training you received, if you did something wrong, you got a bollicking.

    The older generations learn’t one valuable lesson, think on your feet.

    So you are blaming the young people now for not picking up skills from the older people and that the reason older people picked up skills was because they were simply better, that's nonsense.

    Older people picked up the skills easier because they were immersed in the work every day in the workplace. If the guy that was training you was useless or ignorant you could find out from someone else in the workplace that was much better. You built up informal connections that got you around problems. How do you do that with an older guy sitting at home remotely who is useless at training but he is you assigned trainer. That becomes a roadblock, you don't know anyone else in the workplace to work around it. Also that older guy has already built up all the connections in the workplace from before WFH was mandated. Therefore even if he is useless he is still in a much more powerful position than the new hire. When everyone is in the workplace the new hire will build up his own contacts and base in the workplace. That is the reality of human interactions which WFH cannot replicate



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 927 ✭✭✭littlefeet


    A cybersecurity employee in the public sector has been suspended for abusing a politician. I wonder if not developing work norms and a full understanding of the consequences of their behaviour on their career was a factor.

    Working from home has been a great boon for many people. It is human nature to want to keep what suits people, plus the way some of the big tech companies behave probably leads to cynicism, but if it gets to a stage where, under their breath staff are sayng f** on-site work just to sort things for new or younger staff or what evey, it's a version of pulling the lader up after youself.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    Plenty of people who work 5 days a week in the office commit crimes. Do you also wonder if the commute and poorer work life balance are a factor when these people commit crimes? Regardless, I don't see how you need to be in the office regularly to know abusing someone like that is a bad idea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 927 ✭✭✭littlefeet


    That's true, but how to behave, cultural norms, how interaction with others works, and so on are often learned at work, not getting into why an adult has arrived at a situation where they don't understand social norms or the consequences of their behavior, that's a different debate.

    Note, they have not been accused of a crime, and they are suspended for online abuse of a politician.



  • Moderators, Education Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 35,330 Mod ✭✭✭✭AlmightyCushion


    They are learned everywhere. School, college, work (both in person and remote), interactions with friends and family. You don't need to be in the office to learn these that making online threats towards people is a bad idea.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,195 ✭✭✭techman1


    Some of (but far from all of) the most innovative companies in the world are seeking more time in the office because they have spent tens of millions on showpiece landmark offices, and/or are tied into long term leases, and they think it looks bad to have those offices mostly empty.

    Thats a rubbish argument, you think a multi trillion euro company like Microsoft is worried about needing to keep office space occupied because it's a sunk cost? To a company like Microsoft et al, the cost of office space is trivial, loose change even prime properties in the middle of big cities are a trivial cost. However if Microsoft is falling behind the competition because it's employees are not reaching the required skill levels and company culture that is very significant and important to them.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,794 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    Yeah, no big company is intentionally doing something it knows is costing it productivity and profits for the sake of pride in its corporate offices. They would happily leave the offices empty or sublet if they thought it was the right move.

    Whether you agree or not, companies are bringing people back because they believe it's the best thing for the business.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    surely the massive efficiency and productivity gains that people who favour fully remote working claim would more than offset the lease costs ?

    What massive efficiency and productivity gains would those be? I don't think anyone is claiming massive gains, most people are saying they're just as productive WFH as in the office. Which is different. And that's backed up by many studies. Did any of FAANG start making losses during the switch to blended working? No. Did their profits, in fact, increase? Yes.

    But hyperbole, yay!

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    A cybersecurity employee in the public sector has been suspended for abusing a politician. I wonder if not developing work norms and a full understanding of the consequences of their behaviour on their career was a factor.

    If you're talking about the one that's been suspended for abusing Simon Harris, they work for the Gardaí's National Cyber Crime Bureau - which does not have blended working available.

    If you're talking about the one sentenced in January 2024, he was 43 and had been working in the US for 15-ish years. He didn't learn his behaviour from remote working.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Why don't you properly quote people if you're bothering to reply, so they at least get pinged?

    Shareholders absolutely have and do raise the issue of empty offices. It makes no commercial sense, on the face of it, to be paying €50-€60 per square metre per month for an office building that's usually 60%-80% empty because your staff WFH two or three days a week. Similarly, if you've paid millions to own a building outright, only to have it sitting mostly empty.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Nah, you've definitely gone the "managers need to be able to see their staff working" line before on this or another thread, talking about how GDPR breaches would occur if people were WFH. But I'm not arsed searching for it.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,140 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    The overarching sentiment from posters here is that they are much more productive at home , so much so I wonder how they ever coped in an office given all the distractions they note.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 927 ✭✭✭littlefeet


    Well, either it is true, or it's true for them or its not, the real reason might not sound as reasonable and employer foucsed, blended working or complete wfh has got them out of the trap of putting a child in a creche for the 10 or 12-hour days or allowed them to buy in a cheaper area of Ireland and retain a job in Dublin or Cork or move to some remote part of Ireland for a hobby or a relatioship.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 278 ✭✭Tacitus Kilgore DCLXVI


    Because maybe not a huge amount of people were working from home prior to Covid, I was before you jump in with that. But don't let that get in the way of your 'telling it as it is hardman' routine though.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,140 ✭✭✭✭Cyrus


    Are you trying to make a point here ? It's not clear.

    And hard man routine ? Are you ok?

    Post edited by Cyrus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,480 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    No, the overarching sentiment here is that many people are as productive at home, or moreso. Not "massively" more productive. Let your argument stand by itself, without added hyperbole or putting words in peoples' mouths.

    I know I can WFH when I've a cold or chest infection now, as opposed to just staying home so as not to infect people in the office. I'm definitely more productive in mornings WFH where I've gotten up 30 minutes before starting work, as opposed to having to get up 90 to 120 minutes before in order to commute. I know I've no problem working later in the evenings when needed, knowing when I switch off the monitor, I'm done, and not having to face a commute home. I can do my job just as well from home, and do, and I don't miss the endless conversations about last night's match or soap opera or reality TV show.

    YMMV. Good for you.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,316 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Money can be saved by going or offering fully remote - which is why certain companies do it. In our example we didn't see any drop in efficiency when the decreased sick days were factored in (that was across thousands in a wide range of professions, so not a small sample size). Layer a higher amount of good will on top of that (employees more likely to perform extra work and offer flexibility such as weekend work)

    Any CEO is going to receive significant pressure from underlying management for office/onsite presence for a variety of reasons, not all related to business - I've directly witnessed this multiple times. Many leadership figures I know simply enjoy being in the office - which can be reason enough



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    If CEOs were infallible no companies would ever go bust and no CEO would ever get sacked.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,990 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Great exodus from the office when there a taxi protest or when Zelensky visit shuts down traffic.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,615 ✭✭✭Dr Robert


    Hybrid is the sweet spot.

    Also, not mentioned but flexible hours can work well in some companies. Work some of the day in the office and some at home. Essentially, miss the traffic. It won't suit all companies.



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