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Couple Ordered to Demolish House - any update?

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 984 ✭✭✭steinbock123


    So I break the law, say, for example, I drive my Ferrari down the motorway at 275 kph. But , because I’ve loads of money, I pay a fine of €250,000 and carry on driving with no ban enforced.
    Does everybody win? I certainly do.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,953 ✭✭✭BK5


    Whether it was a one bed shack or a 6 bed mansion the couple were told from the start that no planning permission for anything was going to be granted on that particular land, they still bulled on and built the house. I think this is the main factor in all this, I think the couple thought they could brass neck it out and get retention on the house.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Why were the ever allowed to finish it and move in? Electricity, Eircode, opening onto public road etc.

    Maybe they did it all over a weekend?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,908 ✭✭✭StupidLikeAFox


    I think if they did that they might have been fine and nobody would ever have heard of them, instead they actually built a much bigger house. Really took the piss with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,198 ✭✭✭✭Mellor


    Fine home? It's a poorly designed, oversized, probably costs a bomb to heat and run. Given the lack of compliance with planning laws, I'd be doubtful of the compliance with building regs. It's taken so long to final the courts you'd nearly wonder how much of it is end of life.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The Council's refusal of permission was due to a sterilisation order on the land meaning nothing was allowed to be built on it.

    If the Council then just decide to allow them to keep the house instead but also pay a big fine, they have then set a precedent; they have allowed a structure built without permission to be retained on land with a sterilisation order on it. That means anyone with such land could go and build something, use this example as precedent, pay whatever fine may be imposed and get to keep what they built.

    The Council cannot do a "one-off" thing just because it's a "fine home" (that's very subjective anyway, looks absolutely monstrous to me). You allow it this time, and you have legally opened the floodgates to more.

    The Councils will generally try to give retention permission where they can, provided the house/structure/development is something which may reasonably have been given permission for in the first place, or depending on what modifications can be made to bring it to that point. In this case though it's very clear-cut; nothing was permitted to be built on that land. Therefore, the Council cannot in any way allow it to remain (not by way of imposing a huge fine on the owners to let them keep it, not by way of legally taking ownership of it and using it as social housing or other such facility… nothing).



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,486 ✭✭✭✭muffler




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    I've posted a variation of the above several times before, particularly when someone suggests the Council should take ownership of it and use it for social housing or similar. In fairness, the thread can move fast so it's on a different page quick enough, but still, it cannot be reiterated enough that the Council cannot and will not allow the house to remain.

    I didn't even mention above how if the Council were to take ownership of it and try to retain it for their own use, it would likely give the Murrays new grounds to appeal (which would actually be their strongest argument to make thus far as the Council would be breaching/changing their own rules regarding the sterilisation order to suit themselves) and then you're into a whole new set of legal challenges and appeals and probably kicking the can another 5+ years down the road.

    It's never going to happen. It has to be demolished.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,589 ✭✭✭standardg60


    Indeed, and it's a very salient point. They didn't just build based on what was originally refused, they built one twice the size. Which renders any argument that they were simply desperate to have a 'family home' completely redundant.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,757 ✭✭✭dubrov


    Never say never. I'd say the council are desperate to find a technicality to allow them to keep it and make this headache go away



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Again, the headache going away would be demolishing the building.

    Trying to find a technicality to keep it opens the doors to a whole range of new and numerous legal and regulatory headaches which would far outweigh any benefits of keeping this one property which is out in the sticks and would probably require massive overhaul and adaptation for whatever their intended use for it may be.

    I'm perfectly happy to say "never" in this case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,597 ✭✭✭SuperTortoise


    Why was the land not allowed to be built on in the first place?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    How are they finding out? It wont be demolished.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The owners of the land which the Murrays later bought to build their house on, had already agreed to sterilisation orders on the land as a condition of two previous planning applications.

    image.png image.png

    As it turned out, a formal legal agreement for this was never put in place, but regardless of this, the Murrays were refused planning permission largely on that basis, and built their house (about twice as large as was applied for in planning) anyway knowing they were doing so without permission.

    Councils will often have sterilisation orders put in place for some lands, or even just refuse to grant any planning application on some lands, where this can cause excessive development in rural areas. There doesn't need to be a formal sterilisation order for this so long as it is justifiable.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If their desperation hasn't enable them to find such a "technicality" at any point in the past 19 years, your faith that they will find one now is quite touching, really.

    But, as Penn points out, if the goal is to make the headache go away, that's best acheived by demolishing the building. Problem solved.

    As far as the owners are concerned, even if the building isn't demolished, that's little consolation. This whole saga has been a financial disaster for them. The building is worthless; nobody will buy it any price, and no bank will take a mortgage over it. Their entire investment in putting up the house, and in taking (and losing) multiple legal actions to try to defend what they have done, is a write-off. All they are left with is a site which is currently worth less than it would be if vacant, since anyone acquiring the site will have to pay the cost of clearing and remediation before they can do anything with it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Not really though. They are left with a house that can be passed down between generations like any other. They havent found out. Its a joke.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Why would they burn tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of euros in legal fees if they were content with an unsaleable, unmortgageable house?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    It hasnt gone swimmingly for them but in no way have they fucked around and found out. They are living in a mansion.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,401 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    . . . for which they have paid well over the odds, and which is now worthless. Even if living in a (fairly hideous) mansion is all you aspire to, there are much cheaper ways of making your pwecious dweam come twue.

    They could have lived in a rented mansion for all those years, have had exactly the same utility, suffered much less stress, and now be much better off. Or they could have built a house with planning permission, saved hundreds of thousands in legal fees, and now own an extremely valuable asset which they could bequeath to their children.

    Seriously this is the worst financial decision they have ever made or could possibly have made, and they know it. And so do their kids, who have watched their potential inheritance being squandered by this entitled lunacy.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,566 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd hesitate to call it a 'mansion' too. a pile, maybe. hopefully soon to be a different sort of pile.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Fancy dan you must be. Its huge. I agree though , its an utter joke its still standing but it wont be demolished.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    The trouble is that now, they've run out of road. They got to live in the house for about 20 years, that's true. But they likely have no further ways of extending their legal challenges any further. Which means the situation they are likely to start facing if they do not agree to move out within an agreed timeframe, is huge fines, possible prison time if they continue to disregard the order (at which point they will have been removed from the house and demolition would go ahead), and ultimately they will have zero gained from the house. They can't sell it, can't pass it on, can't get any money back from it. Already spent huge money in legal fees challenging the decisions. Not to mention that while they have gotten to live in the house for about 20 years, it's far worse than "It hasn't gone swimmingly for them". They've been living with the constant stress, time and effort of the legal challenges and knowledge that if they can't win, their house will be demolished.

    At the end of it all, once the demolition goes ahead, they will have no house they can sell or pass on, land which can only be sold for agricultural purposes (so won't fetch as high a price as land someone could build on), and will still have to buy/rent/build a new home 20 years after already thinking they built the home they'd be in for the rest of their days.

    They are living in a mansion built on quicksand. The bill comes due.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    See I dont believe for a second the demolition will go ahead. That was the whole point of my original post.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,579 ✭✭✭GavPJ


    The odds are really stacked against the Murray's and I think they have run out of road.

    But something is telling me, that it won't be demolished, this country is bonkers. If Paddy Power

    was taking a bet on them keeping it, I definitely would put a small wager on it just for the hell

    of it.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,566 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i'd be happy to compromise on the term 'mcmansion', to be fair.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 37,416 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Do you think that after almost 20 years of the Council fighting repeated legal challenges and appeals to enforce the demolition order, with every court along the way agreeing with their decision, and with no more avenues in which the Murrays can bring further legal challenges or objections… that the Council will now turn around and say "Actually, it's fine, keep the house"?

    People underestimate the impact that setting a precedent like that would have. You may not believe the demolition will go ahead simply on a "this specific case" basis. The legal ramifications it would have for the Council would be huge because it could see them challenged on every sterilisation order, every retention application, every refusal where the primary reasons were similar to this case, and every time they have brought others to court for enforcement issues.

    You may not believe the demolition will go ahead. For Meath County Council, the demolition has to go ahead. They have to enforce this because the consequences of not enforcing it are far, far worse. It's why they have been fighting to enforce it every bit as much as the Murrays have been fighting against it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    I dont think this house is getting demolished after 20 years. I hope im wrong. You are right its sets an awful precedent, but a precedent will be set in my opinion. When do you think it will be rubble?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭ledwithhedwith


    Hahah thats probably more accurate, gaudy yoke.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 55,566 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    taking bets on their next legal brainwave.

    'your honour, it's not actually a house; it's actually three houses mashed together. it even looks like that. all the paperwork the council have been throwing at us is therefore null and void'.



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