Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

Trump - The positives - (see Mod note in OP)

1202122232426»

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,595 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Passports already make it clear who people are. That's literally the point.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭Palmach


    It has a name on it. The addition adds another layer to identification as do biometrics.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,595 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    It has more than that on it.

    This doesn't benefit anyone. It's just another MAGA stunt.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    If there's no benefit, then why bother stating a gender on the passport in the first place? To satisfy the idle curiousity of the immigration officer?

    Back on the border…

    https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cwyn9jwqzy8o



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,252 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If there's no benefit, then why bother stating a gender on the passport in the first place? To satisfy the idle curiousity of the immigration officer?

    Actually, that's a good question.

    I'm sceptical that adding sex/gender to passports does very much at all to improve their utility for identification purposes, or that it ever did. When you've already got somebody's name and date of birth and a unique numeric identifiers, I struggle to think that there are going to be many cases in which there remains any ambiguity that is going to be resolved with information about gender.

    My guess is that it was originally included in passports because citizenship rights varued with gender. In the past, a woman who married a US citizen thereby acquired US citizenship. Conversely, a US citizen woman who married a non-citizen lost her US citizenship. And no doubt there were other sex-linked differneces in the nature and extent of citizenship rights. And the US wouldn't have been by any means alone in this. So it made sense for citizenship records to include data about sex. (And, fun fact, the main point of a passport is not to indentify you; you can usually identify yourself. It's to provide evidence of your citizenship.)

    Nowadays, gender is much less likely to be relevant for citizenship purpose, but gender still appears. I suspect this is largely a historical hangover — it has always appeared; why remove it? And this may be reinforced by international standards and conventions about passport design. (It's not a coincidence that all passports look like, well, passports, and that they are all laid out in a similar way.)

    Some countries do admit a third gender marker as an alternative to 'M' and 'F' — 'X', which may indicate a non-binary identification, or it may indicate an undetermined gender or an intersex person, or it may just indicate that the passport holder chooses not to add their gender to their passport — different countries vary as to the circumstances in which they use the 'X' marker. And the fact that this is permitted, and doesn't seem to cause any problems, tends to confirm that the gender marker isn't really relevant to identification — people seem to get indentified just fine with a gender marker of indeterminate meaning.

    Also worth noting that lots of countries permit the use of 'M' and 'F' by reference to transitioned gender, rather than gender at birth. And, actually, if your main concern really is with identification, this makes sense — a trans person is more likely to present with the appearance of the gender to which they have transitioned than of the gender to which they were assigned at birth, so in these cases recordiing only brth gender seems more likely to confuse the process of indentification than to simplify it.

    To be fair to the administration, they do not pretend that their insistance on designating birth gender in passports has anything at all to do with identification, or for that matter with citizenship. The executive order which was challenged in the Supreme Court is very open about being motivated by ideological considerations, asserting that "efforts to eradicate the biological reality of sex fundamentally attack women by depriving them of their dignity, safety, and wellbeing", and that "the erasure of sex in language and policy has a corrosive impact not just on women but on the validity of the entire American system". There isn't a word in the order about the utility of passports for identification or, indeed, their utility for any purpose at all.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,833 ✭✭✭Bishop of hope


    Afaik the birth cert of a child has to include the sex at birth, you need a birth cert to apply for a passport. I know you can have your birth cert changed legally later on if you wish, so what the current position on your birth cert is should be the current position on your passport?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,252 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    In Ireland, if you get a gender recognition certificate, you can then get both a revised birth certificate showing your preferred gender, and a passport showing your preferred gender.

    (You don't have to — once you get the GRC it's up to you to use it to get a revised birth cert and/or a new passport, so in theory you could use it to get one of these but not the other. But I can't imagine that many people who are motivated to get a GRC would want to do that.)

    Things are more complicated in the US where birth registration is a matter for the states, but passports are issued by the federal government. The states vary in their practice — there are some states where you can get a revised birth cert showing your preferred gender and/or which will issue birth certificates with an 'X' gender marker or something of the kind, and other states where you cannot. States that do allow revised birth certificates may differ in when they allow them. For example, in California you simply assert your preferred gender; in New York you'll need a medical affidavit; in Alabama you'll have to have undergone gender reassignment surgery; in Tennessee no change is possible under any circumstances.

    The new rules US on passports apply irrespective of what your state-issued birth cert says or doesn't say.

    (Even if you do have a revised birth cert the registration records held by the state do show both your original registration details and any changes, so information about your originally-assigned gender isn't irretrievably lost; it just doesn't appear on a birth certificate issued today. So if the Feds really, really want to, they can find out what gender you were registered with when you were born. In practice, I don't know whether the US passport office is going to double-check every birth certificate presented to them to see the details in the state register of births are different from what's in the certificate.)



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,407 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Bringing the thread back on topic, there is no benefit to adding gender onto a passport at birth other than to appease a bunch of bigoted MAGA idiots. The article linked by the OP even mentions how this move was linked to Trumps campaign "to end the policies of his predecessor on transgender Americans as well as on diversity, equity and inclusion, or DEI".
    It was intended to help spread hatred and division amongst Americans - hardly a positive.

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    An interesting post, and government inertia is indeed a thing, there is something to it.

    On the other hand, my sex is listed on my driver’s license. That can’t be a hold-over: back in the days when women couldn’t drive, there was no point in a sex marker in the first place. If you had a license, you were male. Similarly my height and eye colour don’t grant any particular additional rights or restrictions, they are almost certainly there for identification purposes. As I look at my license to carry, it also has my hair colour, now updated to grey, and weight, which is now a kg or two more than it was when I got it. Both are relatively volatile items for identification purposes, but they have even less purpose as to any rights or permissions.

    Then again, apparently sex was only added to US passports in the 1970s, though I’m having a devil of a time trying to understand why.

    There is a third factor… The purpose of the passport is to enact agreements between countries for the benefit of their citizens. There are some nations which do not accept trans-identifying or non binary passports, people have been turned back at immigration because of it. Not that I’m saying that this has anything to do with the Trump administration decision, but it is an argument. The citizen’s state sets the standards for issuing a passport, but the other countries set the standards for accepting them. This may be the cause of the addition in the 1970s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,252 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Interesting. And equally interesting is the fact that Irish driving licences don't include sex, and have never included sex. And the same is true for many other European countries. Some European countries which did include sex dropped it when an EU standard design for driving licences was adopted — the standard design doesn't include a field for sex.

    Another fun fact: US military dog tags include a number of identifiers, but they don't include sex. (And, SFAIK, never did.) The Common Access Card issued to serving personel also does not show sex, either printed on the card or readable from the chip.

    And another: Australia driving licences don't show sex. They used to, along with other identifiying information (height, eye colour, and in some states hair colour and build) but after licences with photographs became standard in the 1970s the descriptive text was no longer thought necessary and was dropped. (So it seems that sex was being dropped from Australian licences at about the same time as it was being added to US licences. Weird, or what?)

    The evidence (and common sense) suggests that information about gender generally adds little or no utility to an identifying document. And, across a range of identifying documents, there isn't much consistency about whether it's included or not.

    But, when it is included, it becomes yet another ground for culture wars to be be fought on. Which, I suggest, is in itself a good reason for omitting gender — if we don't need to show gender on a document then, in the current climate, we probably need not to show it. It adds no value, and just pisses people off. (Unless you're of the view that pissing people off is valuable in itself, of course.)

    There is a third factor . . There are some nations which do not accept trans-identifying or non binary passports, people have been turned back at immigration because of it. Not that I’m saying that this has anything to do with the Trump administration decision, but it is an argument.

    It's a good point. But I think it may be answered by saying that it's optional for citizens to seek a trans-identifying or non-binary passport — those who fear being turned back can get a passport showing their birth gender. If they prefer a passport showing their preferred gender, despite the risk of being refused entry to some countries, should the state second-guess that and refuse to let them have the passport they want?

    Plus, of course, if someone has transitioned and presents as their trans gender, a passport identifying them with their birth gender is likely to cause them a different set of problems, because what the passport says doesn't match what the passport officer sees. (So I think you're right — the US administration's position here is not driven by any consideration of the utility of the passport to the citizen to whom it is issued. And, to be fair to them, they don't make any pretence of being even marginally concerned about that.)

    Thse countervailing considerations suggest that passports, too, are among the documents from which sex indications should probably be dropped. But apparently no country has completely dropped them — at most, they have added an optional 'X' identifier, or similar. This is because in 1980 the International Civil Aviation Organisation adopted standards for passports which required, and still require, a field showing sex. (The standard explicitly permits an 'X' identifier in this field.) No country wants to depart from the standard, so any change here will require concerted action at the ICAO to modify the standard, either to eliminate the sex field or to make it optional for countries to include a sex field.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Another fun fact: US military dog tags include a number of identifiers, but they don't include sex. (And, SFAIK, never did.) The Common Access Card issued to serving personel also does not show sex, either printed on the card or readable from the chip.

    ID tags are not considered as definitive identification, but are more an aid. The CAC doesn’t have it on the card, but the card is linked to the DEERS system which does have a sex identifier, which only allows M or F. (If you’re not in DEERs you can’t program the card) In that case, however, there actually is a discriminatory basis as regulations varying from PT standards, accommodation or grooming standards do differ by gender. What is in DEERS rules. It can (or more accurately, could) be changed, but only after transition is completed and signed off by a doctor.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,838 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If someone ends up in hospital a passport is the least likely form of ID they're likely to have with them

    Most people in the US don't even have a passport.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,252 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Presumably, in most contexts in which the CAC is commonly used, the person to whom it is produced doesn't have ready acccess to the DEERS database, and so can't easily use the card to establish what sex is recorded in the database? (And generally would have no reason to want to to that anyway?)

    Private sector as well as public sector databases of employees/personnel generally do include records of sex. The data is mostly used in aggregate — as in, you generally don't care which of your employees are male or female, but you do care how many overall are male or female, since this feeds into everything from pension funding (women live longer, and so draw pensions for longer) to leave planning (women take more sick leave) to workforce planning (women have a highe propensity ot avail of part-time work opportunities and jobsharing opportunities). US employers who provide health insurance also generally need to know the gender demographics of their workforce; it has a huge effect on the cost and structure of group health insurance plans. But there's generally no reason to link the data on sex to any ID documents that may be issued, because it's not useful data in the contexts in which those documents are used.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,323 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Actually, when I present my card it is checked against DEERS.

    https://www.army.mil/article/240298/new_entry_control_system_strengthens_installation_security

    Screenshot_20251112_110753_Samsung Internet.jpg

    The flat top of the scanner the guy is holding in the photo is a small display screen like a mini iPad sort of thing, which pulls up the DEERS readout.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 28,252 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Fair enough. But the suggestion seems to be that the check is to ensure that the data embedded in the card correlates to the date recorded in DEERS. There's no suggestion there that any other data recorded in DEERS is, or can be, accessed.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,407 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Mod: back on topic folks. Anyone got an actual positive from Trump's second term?

    Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/ .



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,046 ✭✭✭Palmach


    1. Ceasefire in the Palestinian territories.
    2. Massive increase in oil and gas drilling.
    3. Border finally controlled. massive cut in illegal emigration.
    4. Largest tax cut ever. The caveat here is that if you are pro-tax cuts this great but many fiscal hawks will rightly worry about the debt. Depends on your perspective.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,595 ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    I don't see how more oil and gas drilling is a positive. Same for tax cuts. I'd love to see sources for these claims.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,575 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    I don't think you need to be a "fiscal hawk" to consider borrowing money to cut taxes is a stupid idea; or why not simply say we'll stop taxing everyone and simply borrow it instead…

    But there is some good news if you are one of the 12 current republican senators investigated by the DOJ as you'll now get a half a million tax paid payout for being investigated. Nothing like a bit of friendly corruption to make the pill easier to swallow to reopen the government again.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,097 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Real increases in fossil fuel productions, or proposals? So far it's just proposals, increases if they happen are down the road so not a positive. Many would argue that the US could reduce its foreign sales of oil and not need to increase production.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,498 ✭✭✭For Petes Sake


    I'm positive that he's clinically insane, if that counts.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,954 ✭✭✭✭dulpit


    1. Not sure you can claim that as a Trump positive when (a) the Israelis are still bombing Gaza regularly and (b) Trump let it go on for so long (not that Biden or Kamala Harris would have done different, America is a weird place when it comes to Israel).
    2. That is a net negative for the world.
    3. If you are in favour of closed borders then I guess that's a positive alright - granted.
    4. Tax cuts are bad, especially when they are cuts to the top earners which is what Trump has done.

    So 1 from 4 there I'd say…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 23,398 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    It may yet become a positive that the Epstein case becomes too big for the White House to keep a lid on and if all details are revealed then there might be no PR company on the planet that can sugar coat the actions of some of the most senior people and organisation's on the planet.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,838 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Tens of millions of people will lose their healthcare, but the 1% are getting a tax cut so it's all good.

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,838 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Don't get your hopes up. We already know what one huge global organisation with a presence almost everywhere in the world got up to on an almost unimaginable scale, and they have and are and will ever face no sanction whatsoever. Including continuing to allow it to control taxpayer-funded schools

    But they elect a new head guy and it's a global media event with none of the 'unpleasantness' getting mentioned at all

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



Advertisement