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Planning and the legal system in Ireland

1246

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 462 ✭✭Thunder87


    The judicial review process isn't supposed to exist as a proxy for objections and appeals though, the whole problem at the moment is people use it as just another means to "act on it" when there's a development they don't like proposed in their back yard.

    Will have to wait to see what the changes are (the big planning bill seems to have been fairly minor after all the hysteria around it) but based off the description it definitely sounds like a major step in the right direction,

    I'd hope legitimate interest means you've highlighted and fought e.g a specific environmental breach early in the process and can only take a JR on it if both an objection and appeal on the same issue were unsuccessful (and the JR is only accepted if there's still some legal uncertainty). That'd significantly raise the bar while also giving applicants the ability to correct the issue early in the process so it never gets to JR stage in the first place



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,177 ✭✭✭✭josip


    In my daughter's Junior Cert Geography class, the teacher covers Peter Sweetman in the "Weather" chapter.

    I found out when she came home last week and asked, "Have you heard about a Sweetman who is stopping anything from being built in Ireland?"



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 44,557 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I know that you're quoting your daughter but Sweetman hasn't stopped anything from being built. It is claims such as this (made by adults) that help muddy the water regarding planning and developments and why some applications fail.
    If Sweetman (or anyone) lodge an observation that results in a project being blocked then it is the developers and their planners who missed whatever the observation noted. It isn't the observer who blocked it - they just effectively stress-test the application.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Sweetman cannot be blamed for:

    • The existing environmental legislation of Ireland/EU
    • The inattention of both private and public organisations to their responsibilities regarding the above legislation

    He uses the only avenue available to challenge poor quality planning applications that aren't following the rules as laid down.

    If you don't want taken to court by him, hire him, or environmental planning engineers and lawyers, to consult when you do your planning application.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,177 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Completely agree that Sweetman is identifying flaws in applications made by others. He does seem to have become addicted to the opium of his own success however.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 40,128 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    If you don't want taken to court by him, hire him

    Does he actually act as a paid planning consultant? Massive conflict of interest if so

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Probably not actually Sweetman himself (though he seems very good at identifying issues in applications, maybe he should) but clearly there is a lack of due diligence that he is able to leverage to highlight bad planning.

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    This is a very important point about the opium portion.

    It's not black and white - good planning vs bad planning. That is too simplistic. I've seen some submissions from his ilk and they are pure nimby. Minor naming errors or typos and delaying the projects has a major negative effect on the environment.

    Media doesn't capture this dark side, they cover the cases he should take, but not the litany of nonsense his ilk stoop down to.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 305 ✭✭scrabtom


    Ultimately the planning system should be airtight enough to deal with his ilk but Sweetman is still a generational bollocks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,459 ✭✭✭riddlinrussell


    Is there an example of a Sweetman case where his primary argument wasn't based on a failure to address some aspect of the environmental regulations? Or is 'his ilk' being used to tie him to every nuisance JR that is given overly generous credence by Judges who seem more interested in "well how would I feel if it was my house affected!" and working from there than actually applying the laws as written.

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 31,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Failure to address environmental regulations doesn't even make it a "worthy" objection. The environmental regulations are not fit for purpose. If you have to have a 10,000 page report someone will be able to find an error in it somewhere.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭gjim


    Well the solution then is to fix the environment legislation if it is “not fit for purpose” (I dislike this expression - it’s a fancy way of saying “I don’t like it” usually without reasoning) and not to try to find ways to deny citizens access to the legal system when the government or a government agency does something which is against the law. The law is the law and everyone whether private citizen, corporation or government body is accountable to it and also protected by it.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 31,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I agree. I am not suggesting denying access to the legal system. I am saying that just because someone identifies a flaw somewhere in an application regarding environmental legislation it doesnt mean people were sloppy or that the objection is in good faith.

    I dont think Sweetman's overriding motivation is ensuring good governance.

    And environmental regulations here and elsewhere are not fit for purpose because blocking and delaying so much development, including green infrastructure, is not particularly net beneficial to the environment.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭gjim


    And environmental regulations here and elsewhere are not fit for purpose because blocking and delaying so much development, including green infrastructure, is not particularly net beneficial to the environment.

    This is all a bit vague - "so much development" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

    What are there - 40 thousand odd planning applications made every year? And ABP or ACP or whatever get through 3 or 4 thousand? What proportion are you claiming are unduly delayed or rejected due to environmental legislation? How does it compare with previous years or other jurisdictions? Are the outcomes better or worse now than in the past when such regulations didn't exist and building on floodplains, destroying historical monuments or sites of importance in terms of nature was legal? Or was this a price worth paying for quicker development?

    Before dismissing "environmental regulations" in their entirety, you should be able to answer fundamental questions like these? There's a pretty big difference between situations where, say 1% or 2% of cases are unduly blocked/delayed and say where more than half are and different responses are called for.

    Also when I hear someone claim that "X in Ireland is not fit for purpose", I ask why they rarely give a concrete example of a country which have figured out how to do X better.

    I'm not defending the planning/legal system in Ireland here (I'm not that crazy) but I find myself doing so because much of the blanket criticism seems vague and unsupported by anything except feelings and impressions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,531 ✭✭✭Consonata


    I think we can look at big planning proposals like Metrolink, Dart+, even Busconnects which are taking half a decade to make their way through the planning system, and every year has a net carbon cost on the otherside.

    It's important that such schemes are planned well, and I'm not necessarily opposed to that in the case of say Metrolink. But the degree of obstruction which a project such as busconnects has faced, which is essentially paint on a road to reorganise priority, poses more harm than good to the environment on the whole.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 31,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    What are there - 40 thousand odd planning applications made every year? And ABP or ACP or whatever get through 3 or 4 thousand? What proportion are you claiming are unduly delayed or rejected due to environmental legislation?

    All of them. Its not just about delays at ACP and objections - and it is obviously not just an Irish problem. It seems in most common law systems that as environmental laws have piled up the necessary work to comply with them has exploded. I'll readily admit that off the top of my head most examples I can think of are English but we have very similar systems.

    I also haven't dismissed environmental regulations "in their entirety". I think, as a recent judgement in Ireland backed up and will hopefully ameliorate things, that process was becoming more important than outcomes which is why environmental laws were being used to block windfarms!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    Yes there are many instances, I dont want to use the word case as some are observations, JR application not direct litigation.

    There is a major one at the moment. It is so petty and so obviously malicious that anyone who wants to leave a legacy of care for the environment would never have let that reach ink on paper.

    If the example above causes a significant project delay (already 6 months) it will have a significant negative effect on a protected sensitive environment. It is absolutely outrageous that it could ever be considered an aspect of the environmental regulations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭Busman Paddy Lasty


    The planning is airtight but in favour of a complainant or objector.

    Outraged as I am about malicious objectors I don't fully blame them. They are being enabled by a system that puts projects on hold for years. If the judicial system made targeted decisions that held up projects for insignificant time I believe many of these objections would dissappear.

    If you know you can only have a project amended or not held up - the spurious claims will be pointless and we'd (hopefully) be left with genuine cases.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,584 ✭✭✭gjim


    Sure but even wind farms should be subject to environmental evaluation unless we want a repeat of the Derrybrien debacle.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,080 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    The Warren Buffet quote comes to mind.

    "If a cop follows you for 500 miles, you're going to get a ticket"

    We have thousands, if not tens of thousands, of rules, laws, regulations and policies to help us with good planning. People like Sweetnam are ambulance chasers. Comb through a planning application and find a technicality. Get paid for it. A nice business model but its costing the state in millions if not billions in delayed projects.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 9,435 ✭✭✭markpb


    How does he get paid for it? I thought he was the plaintiff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    He doesn’t, or not by the courts at least. However, he is sometimes engaged by environmental groups or landowners, and I imagine that there’s some sort of nominal fee that changes hands then for the time used to make the submission.

    Based on his lifestyle, and previous interviews with him, it’s pretty clear he does not make a lot of money out of this.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,930 ✭✭✭hans aus dtschl


    There are people that do make money from this.

    I don't know much about him, but he doesn't appear to be one of those people. For one thing, those more nefarious people usually wrap themselves in all sorts of ambiguous legal entities and companies in order to make the money.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 3,091 ✭✭✭KrisW1001


    The real money motive is to prevent loss of a potential future gain. If one happened to own land because one had been told by people inside the local authorities with insider information that said land would be zoned for housing in future, then one would spend a very large amount of money to prevent that land becoming bisected by a motorway or—worse—a rail line.

    I’m amazed at how often our endangered native species congregate in the commuter belts of cities…



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,863 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    https://www.irishtimes.com/business/2025/10/02/changes-to-planning-laws-more-important-than-budget-says-chambers/

    Well worth reading this article Couple of snippets.

    Planning objectors are now taking cases on “an industrial scale” and are threatening the common good, the head of a key team of outside experts appointed to speed up infrastructure projects has warned.

    Sixty-six High Court challenges were taken across the UK last year on large planning applications. By contrast, 125 were taken in Ireland last year, and another 88 have been taken in the first six months of this year.

    Strongly condemning actions on such scale, Mr O’Driscoll said: “We have citizens in this country who have no housing, their children have no prospect of housing, we’re about to run out of water, we’re about to run out of energy.”

    There is one law firm in Dublin, I won't mention the name, that has made an absolute killing out of this.

    I think it's a national emergency. We can't go on like this and I'm looking forward to the recommendations as to how the government fixes it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 15,177 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Is it widely known what law firm Mr O'Driscoll is referring to ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,863 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    I referred to one law firm. I don't think he did.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 8,501 ✭✭✭plodder


    How long has this saga been going on? I find it hard to take seriously that removing one small corner of green area adjoining a large park, is going to cause harm to a species of bird that is of "least concern" from a conservation perpsective. Whose fault is it? The NIMBY objectors, Dublin City Council, Aodhán Ó Ríordáin and the Labour Party, or ACP?

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/concerns-for-brent-goose-help-block-580-new-homes-in-dublin/a450172072.html

    “The opposite of 'good' is 'good intentions'”



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 31,831 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    All of the above and then some. The courts can only interpret the laws as written, but it is utterly absurd.

    These would be the same fools who will declare a housing "crisis" yet happily support blocking this development under an utterly contrived concern that is maybe, possibly might discommode a few geese. It is farcical.



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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 11,156 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    This was from a couple of days ago. It's all great news, but it should have been done 6 or 7 years ago, when it became painfully obvious that there was a massive problem.

    https://www.businesspost.ie/politics/government-to-hit-nuclear-button-granting-itself-emergency-powers-to-solve-infrastructure-crisis/

    Paywall, so here's a few of the more important quotes.

    The new infrastructure plan, due to go to cabinet on December 2, has been described as “the most important to go to cabinet in years”.

    The plan will include two pieces of legislation - a Critical Infrastructure Bill and an Emergency Powers Bill - both of which will short-circuit the planning process.

    The Critical Infrastructure Bill will fast-track a small number of highly strategic infrastructure projects through the planning process.

    The Emergency Powers Bill will be “nuclear option” for projects of national importance, allowing them to bypass many parts of the planning process altogether.

    The government will introduce a cap on recoverable legal costs in environmental cases, of around €35,000.

    A Civil Reform Bill will seek to rebalance the rights of individuals with the common good regarding judicial reviews of building projects.

    Reforms will allow different consenting procedures, which at present have to run sequentially, to instead run concurrently.The infrastructure guidelines, previously known as the public spending code, will be stripped down to bare essentials, reducing the number of decisions and assessments needed to approve large projects.

    It's a lengthy article that goes into more depth on it.



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